Anyone spot the problem?

4.2 V8 40v biturbo - 450 bhp
4.2 V8 40v biturbo - 480 bhp (plus)
Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:07 am

Doesn't do it on WOT, so will have to do what i did for the first set of logs but let it run out to the redline.
Will do some g'box logs as well in case something shows up.

User avatar
Shoppinit
Cruising
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:24 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Shoppinit » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:59 am

Make sure you log the ignition retarding. Or advance, rather.

If it doesn't do it on WOT then that suggests something in closed loop mode is causing issues.

While you're there, have a look at the current trim levels (measuring group 30 or 32 IIRC).

Once you've got a good log, clear your fault codes (even if there are none) and try immediately the same pull. Clearing dtc also resets trim values to zero.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."

User avatar
Shoppinit
Cruising
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:24 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Shoppinit » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:00 am

Also whip off the DVs and test them. It's a 10 min job. You can test by sucking on the vac hose connection and making sure the valve moves.

When's the last time the plugs were changed and what with?
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:31 pm

Plugs were changed less than 1k ago - NGK PFR7Q

User avatar
Shoppinit
Cruising
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:24 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Shoppinit » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:37 pm

Might be worth retorquing them. They can come a bit loose if not torqued properly. Long shot, but a no cost thing to try. Are you sure they are genuine plugs and not Ebay specials?
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:10 pm

100% jen-you-ine
Going to be a busy evening for me!

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:37 pm

Okay Dokay, spent this evening doing more logs.
Couldn't get to the red line as i would have run out of road and it was changing up into 5th anyway at these speeds.
If anyone would care to have a look and tell me what they think it would be much appreciated.
Attachments
Engine log 1.xls
(31.5 KiB) Downloaded 46 times
Engine log 2.xls
(29.5 KiB) Downloaded 51 times
Engine log 3.xls
(30.5 KiB) Downloaded 50 times
Engine log 4.xls
(39 KiB) Downloaded 43 times

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:35 pm

Added Lambda/Fuel trim log
Attachments
Lambda & Fuel trim.xls
(52 KiB) Downloaded 42 times

User avatar
Shoppinit
Cruising
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:24 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Shoppinit » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:31 pm

In engine log 1 there are 2 instances where requested boost suddenly drops to a very low value then back up. At the same time, the ECU closes the throttle and the air flow is subsequently reduced. Pretty much straight away the requested boost goes back to max and the throttle opens again.

I suspect that this is the hesitation that you are experiencing, but I don't have the information of the accelerator pedal position in those logs to see if you lifted off or not.

The ECU may be responding to a request to reduce power from the gearbox or ABS / ESP module. Or responding to some knocking. The retardation values are quite high for cylinders 5 to 8, especially. Not sure if this is related to the difference in MAF values where one is reading less air intake. You say you've replaced them, but there is still a bigger difference that I would expect between banks. I would swap the MAFs with each other to eliminate them as a cause of the imbalance.

Also, your trim is showing that the mixture is being weakened. Maybe you've got a small boost leak that's resulting in overfuelling. It's not unknown for the hoses to develop a pinhole that can let varying amounts of air leak depending on boost. This could result in mixture oscillation and excessive knock. Maybe do a pressure test?

There's also a bit of overshoot on the boost. This might point to sticky N75. That could lead to an overboost problem, but that normally leaves a DTC. Not always though.

Somewhere you can log the requests to the ECU to limit torque. Might be in the gearbox TCU. I don't think it's likely that it'll be the ESP unless you're logging in slippery conditions.

Perhaps you could log the boost vals, accel pedal position, throttle angle and retardation for 5-8.

Did you test the DVs? Did you try a pull immediately after resetting the trim values?
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:13 pm

Shopp,
Those dips in log 1 are me lifting the throttle slightly as i was trying not to cause it to downchange to 3rd.
Shouldn't really have posted that one up - i added Engine log 4 as that is a far smoother throttle application.
If i do a graph of the trim data the lambda control sensor lines seems a bit peaky at the start of the run, is this normal? Does lambda control have any bearing on what i am experiencing?
N75 was replaced a couple of years ago but might still be dodgy.
Yes, tested DV's and all seems fine, could hear/feel the valve closing.
Forgot to reset the trims.
Will do more logs tonight and post up.
Thanks for your help so far, much appreciated.

User avatar
Shoppinit
Cruising
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:24 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Shoppinit » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:18 pm

There's a button to leave a marker in the log when something happens. It would be really useful if you could mark when the issue occurs.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:39 pm

Will do

Frustratedracer
2nd Gear
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:58 pm
Location: Perthshire
Contact:

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Frustratedracer » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:22 pm

OK Shopp,
Some more logs done tonight.
One thing that's perplexing me with all this - why don't i get any of these issues when car is in tiptro or paddle shift?
Is this a gearbox or TC issue that is leading me on a merry dance?
Attachments
Engine Log 1.xls
(16 KiB) Downloaded 51 times
Engine Log 2.xls
(16 KiB) Downloaded 52 times
Engine Log 3.xls
(14 KiB) Downloaded 57 times
Gearbox Log 1.xls
(14 KiB) Downloaded 44 times
Torque.xls
(13 KiB) Downloaded 39 times
Trim 1.xls
(13 KiB) Downloaded 41 times
Trim.xls
(15 KiB) Downloaded 39 times

Mɐʇʇ
Cruising
Posts: 2725
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Mɐʇʇ » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:33 am

Shopp is the guru on diagnosing this type of thing - you've got the right guy helping you.
"not a professional engineer, mechanic and mechanist"

User avatar
Shoppinit
Cruising
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:24 pm

Re: Anyone spot the problem?

Post by Shoppinit » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:51 am

Frustratedracer wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:13 pm
Those dips in log 1 are me lifting the throttle slightly as i was trying not to cause it to downchange to 3rd.
Interestingly, the logs you just posted still show the same behaviour for what appears to be consistent accelerator pedal.

The markers are useful. You can see that the rpm rate of increase stalls which will be the hesitation you are feeling. In many of the logs the required boost also drops to zero above atmo at the same time.

I would say that it's the ECU responding to a request to limit torque from the gearbox.

The gearbox log shows that at your marker the calculated torque is higher than anywhere else at about 700. This would suggest to me that the TCU is preparing to change gear because the torque value is too high for the gear you are in. Or that the TCU is requesting torque limiting to protect the box.

This is usually a problem in cars that have been remapped but which haven't had the TCU modified to accept the higher torque values.

The interesting thing is that it doesn't do it in tiptro. This suggests to me that your TCU has been modified to deal with the extra torque in tiptro mode but possibly not in D. I suspect there are a bunch of different parameters for each mode.

I am fairly sure there is a measuring block value in the ECU for the flag to reduce torque at TCU's request. It might be in the TCU measuring blocks, can't remember. Try to find it and see if it corresponds to your hesitation. Maybe log it and mark it.

Who did your TCU? Viper?
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."

Post Reply

Return to “RS6 / RS6 plus (C5 Typ 4B) 2002-2004”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 137 guests