Nurburgring S4??

[BRETTCOLLINS]

Raced both E36 evo and E46 convertible beat them well into 3 figures. but the E46 did out brake me A couple of times, soon got round him again.

[flossymeister]

IMO it depends on the speed range that was being raced over. M3s are not that much faster than S4s. Bear in mind that a B6 S4 has 340bhp as well, but its no faster than a B5 to 60mph. No doubt its faster above say 80 mph, but low down there is a lot to be said for a standard B5. I have video somewhere of repeated 0-60+ races between a B5 S4 and M3 (both standard). S4 leapt away off the line and learned the M3 good until 4th gear IIRC, when the M3 came rocketing past, as would be expected.

Keep in mind cars like the S2 and RS2 as well. An RS2 "only" has 315 bhp, but it'd p1ss on any sodding M3. 0-60 in 4.8, and until the Bugatti Veyron came out it was the fastest car to 30 mph EVER - 1.5 secs. also, it does 30-50 (2nd gear) in 2.1 sec and 50-70 (3rd gear) in 2.8 sec.

just my 2p-worth..... power rating is not everything.

Tim

[DavidT]

Raced both E36 evo and E46 convertible beat them well into 3 figures. but the E46 did out brake me A couple of times, soon got round him again.

Was your S4 standard at the time mate ?

[DavidT]

IMO it depends on the speed range that was being raced over.

Agreed, we are talking about through the gears here, i.e. the maximum acceleration the cars can achieve which mostly negates the low down torque advantage the B5 S4 has over the E46 M3

M3s are not that much faster than S4s

They are. Over a second quicker over a quarter mile from memory. That is a lot.

I have video somewhere of repeated 0-60+ races between a B5 S4 and M3 (both standard). S4 leapt away off the line and learned the M3 good until 4th gear IIRC, when the M3 came rocketing past, as would be expected.

Interesting, I would expect an E46 M3 to start leaving a standard B5 S4 for dead from second gear on. 70bhp and 2wd is an awful lot of advantage in cars of similar weight.

[flossymeister]

I agree Dave, over standing quarter an M3 would eat an S4 for breakfast, lunch and dinner . However, except on 'Bahns or tracks (admittedly what this entire debate is about (i'll go and stand in a corner now ) ), the difference is not that great...... hence I am trying to defend the fact that someone says that their car kept up with or even was faster than an M3..... up to legal UK speeds there really shouldn't be too much in it. especially since an M3 "only" has 260 lb/ft of torque IIRC, as opposed to 295 in a standard B5 S4. If the driver of the M3 was even a semi-numpty and got out of the rev range he might not get the advantage up to legal UK limits.

And regarding which gear the M3 overtook in during the video..... it could have been 3rd rather than 4th (might well make more sense, I agree), but i'm pretty sure it wasn't second. It was past 60 I'm sure..... but as I said before the M3 went by at a serious rate of knots then!

Sorry, bit of tangent since this has nothing to do with Autobahn speeds or the 'ring ...... where an M3 would be king, I agree (except in the wet, where I'd much rather have 4WD thank you).

Tim

[spencerj]

but regardless of the off the line advantage once moving the E46 M3 is a faster car. My original question was if I buy an S4 and take it to MRC for stage one then gut the cats - will it keep up with an E46 M3 once rolling.......

Having looked at it I dont see how an S4 with those mods could.....its heavier than an m3 and bearing in mind 4wd powertrain losses the M3 should be a lot faster......

I agree that in the "real world" the S4 is probably as quick if not quicker but i'm thinking about a head to head with my mate in his E46 M3 on German Autobahns.....

[LeeMarshall]

Hi, a couple of days ago i had a go with a E36 3.0 286 bhp model M3(on private road of course) and up to 70 ish had to ease off a little as i was behind him and no way of passing! past that was about even up to 140 ish.
My car is totally standard so with exhaust and MRC remap would have laughed at him! to be honest my car being 265bhp i was a little surprised??
See if you can get to a local meet and im sure one of the guys will give you a demo.

[spencerj]

a 286bhp E36 M3 3.0 is a little different to an E46 343bhp........but I see what you're saying...the proof is in the pudding...I'll have to have a drive/ be driven in one.....anyone live near me?? - I'm in Guildford

[BRETTCOLLINS]

My car wasn't standard David, about 350bhp. E36 M3 Evo 3.2 and 321bhp with 6 gears not 5.

[droberts]

Sorry mate but there is no way your standard 265bhp S4 beat a 343bhp E46 M3 in in Cab format the M3 would sonly be about 25kg heavier than an S4 - cab adds 100kg onto M3 Coupe weight....

It doesnt make sense - have you considered that you were racing and he was just driving??

My S4 wasn't std, had a Milltek Dual cat-back and gutted pre-cats but even so Minhea recons only 290+bhp. The chap definitely wasn't "driving" - empty dual carriage way, both approached in 2nd/3rd gear speeds, both floored it S4 in inside lane, M3 in outside lane trying to overtake - the S4 was creeping v.marginally ahead through all the gears until I backed off. It was a real-world scenario.

Just been talking to a mate at work, new M3 coupe (343bhp)... we're going to arrange a £50 session at Bruntingthorpe to settle this "discussion"

[flossymeister]

Just been talking to a mate at work, new M3 coupe (343bhp)... we're going to arrange a £50 session at Bruntingthorpe to settle this "discussion"

i think that's best. obsession with bhp is not necessarily the be-all and end-all in my opinion. Putting the right ratios in the gearbox is just as important. See my comment on RS2s above. An RS2 would beat an M3 on the autobahn, with less power. I don't know how heavy an M3 is, but its gotta be similar to an aged estate car!

Of course, I'm probably completely wrong



Tim

[spencerj]

Sorry mate but there is no way your standard 265bhp S4 beat a 343bhp E46 M3 in in Cab format the M3 would sonly be about 25kg heavier than an S4 - cab adds 100kg onto M3 Coupe weight....

It doesnt make sense - have you considered that you were racing and he was just driving??

My S4 wasn't std, had a Milltek Dual cat-back and gutted pre-cats but even so Minhea recons only 290+bhp. The chap definitely wasn't "driving" - empty dual carriage way, both approached in 2nd/3rd gear speeds, both floored it S4 in inside lane, M3 in outside lane trying to overtake - the S4 was creeping v.marginally ahead through all the gears until I backed off. It was a real-world scenario.

Just been talking to a mate at work, new M3 coupe (343bhp)... we're going to arrange a £50 session at Bruntingthorpe to settle this "discussion"

Fair enough - remember if it was an SMG M3 they are not quite as quick as the manual (supposedly) and if the said M3 was SMG and driver didnt have gear change speed set to a fast mode ie number 5 then that could have been a factor.

Bruntingthorpe should be interesting though.............

As for the RS2 it probably would be faster than a standard E46 M3 they are limited to 155mph - my mates has been derestricted and i sat behind him in my M Coupe at 168mph last year........

It sounds to me as if a midly tuned S4 is a match for an E46 M3 (in a line at least) according to you guys......

[flossymeister]

standard RS2 will shade over 170 with limiter taken off..... but 6th is geared to a theoretical max (7300rpm) around 175 IIRC. However, car is limited to 163mph (6500rpm in top gear I think it was). That said, to remove the limiter you just need to remove a single earth connection!

I'd be very interested in the Bruntingthorpe result! Can't wait to find out how far behind the S4 is......

Tim

[DavidT]

I'd be very interested in the Bruntingthorpe result! Can't wait to find out how far behind the S4 is......

When is that please ? and could someone else come along

[s4woody]

or both get ya butts to santa pod on the wrung what ya brung day..sat 25 march..wooo hooo!!!!