RS6 - Buying one a bad idea ?

[Wolverine]

After months of deliberating which all-purpose car to buy to meet the demands of my new family, I finally decided on the RS6 Avant. With a budget of about £35,000 I should be able to pick up a 2003 model with 20,000 miles. However, after trawling through every forum and every post imaginable trying to learn as much as I can about the car, I am now having serious second doubts.

Why ? RUNNING COSTS & DEPRECIATION.

Okay, let’s start with running costs …..

1. Fuel … realistically, I’m looking at 15mpg (I have a heavy right foot). I do about 5000 miles a year, so this equates to approx. £1350 a year. This is double what I pay now but not wholly unreasonable.

2. Insurance …. £1200 a year I have been quoted. Reasonable.

3. Servicing/Maintenance …. I am budgeting £2000 a year for servicing and general wear and tear (like brakes + tyres). This is based on a car that has already covered 20-30k miles. Getting unreasonable.

4. Warranty … after reading some shocking stories of how much gearboxes and engines cost to repair, it would be complete madness not to buy extended warranty on a car like this. So far, the only real solution is an Audi warranty, as aftermarket warranties are capped at low limits and do not provide as comprehensive cover. So that is £1500 per year. Unreasonable but really no choice.

So total yearly cost …. £6000 !!! Ouch. £1.20 per mile. Have I done my calculations wrong ??? Please discuss.

Okay, let’s now talk about depreciation. I know this is an RS6 Forum, so this is obviously going to be a “touchy” and “heated” debate particularly from the perspective of RS6 owners, but here goes anyway …

Car cost £60,000 new. Three years on, and now about to go out of warranty, RS6s prices are looking increasingly vulnerable. One look at autotrader and you will see what I mean. Considering there were only a few hundred examples sold in the UK, there seem to be a lot for sale all of a sudden. £28,000 is the cheapest saloon, and £30,000 is the cheapest Avant. Then look at Ebay … I have seen 5 advertised this month, with a saloon starting bid of £22,000 and even an absolutely mint 2004 Avant with very low mileage failing to achieve more than £34,000. On Pistonheads, a Daytonna 2003 28,000 miler recently sold for £31,500. Then look at how many RS6s Audi dealers have in stock and how long they have had them for. I have been to see two dealer cars, and both were extremely eager to discount the cars (before I even mentioned prices!). Furthermore, over the past month, most of the 2003 cars have been reduced by approx. £2000. Non-franchised dealers cars are even cheaper too! A trader friend of mine also told me that RS6s are not selling at auctions, rarely meeting reserves. So to my point …. With the running costs above, and cars now going out of warranty, will RS6 prices continue to tumble to a point where they are as cheap as RS4s for example? Take BMWs, there is no real premium in an M5 over an M3 these days. If I buy a £35,000 mint 2003 Avant, how much do people here think they will be worth in 1 year and 2 years from now ???? Please discuss.

Anyway, that’s my rant and dilemma over. I love the car, the power, the build quality, the practicality, but financially it seems a disastrous proposition. Do I go with my head or with my heart?

[W8PMC]

Alot depends on your driving style.

I average 20MPG as an overall. Motorway doing 85MPH for a couple of hundred miles i can get mid 20's, push on & that drops into low teens.

Insurance is dependant on circumstance & area, my annual cost was £900. Servicing is expensive, but not overly relative to the car, although i think Audi are well know for a rather high labour cost. Now Audi appear to have removed cam-belt check at 20K & replace at 40K, the overall cost has dropped.

Consumables are very costly & this comes back to your driving style. I was getting through tyres about every 8K miles & that's £1000 (Michelin PS2's). The RS6 is a heavy car, so pads & discs don't last long either, so look at around 10K for front pad changes which costs about £350 a hit & discs every 12-15K miles at £1000 for all 4. Rear pads last longer & IIRC are about £180 to change.

As for current & future values, i can vouch that RS6 prices are strong at the moment. You'd have to be mad to buy such a premium marque on ebay, so i'm hardly shocked those cars did not sell. Audi dealers are getting £40-£42K for good 53 plate saloons with 20-30K miles. Mine (although heavily & costly modified) sold for over £40K this week (53 plate saloon with 27K miles).

My guess is that prices will continue to fall (that's what happens to car prices), but in 12 months i'd only expect a drop of about £3-4K & in 2 years perhaps £6-7K. Look at RS4's, very good examples are still well over £25K & even approaching £30K & they are close to 4 years old examples.

Saying that, we could enter a huge depression & the bottom drop out of the used car market, who knows, but if you want one then get one, as any high ticket motor is gonna be costly to own & maintain.

As aside, look at Bentley Conti GT's, a 12 month example with 6000 miles could be on your drive for £87K, yet some poor bastard paid over £122K 12 months earlier (over a £35K hit in 12 months).

[GaryC]

1. Fuel
Over 4000 miles (mix of town, A road and motorway driving) my average is 19.1mpg. I don't thrash the car, but do use the performance when the situation allows - which seems to be less and less as our roads fill up with traffic and speed cameras.

2. Insurance
I'm paying £700 with Privilege. 35 years old, 3 points (SP30), me and my wife to drive, protected (max) no claims.

3. Servicing/Maintenance
For your annual mileage of 5000 I think £2000 is a little on the pessimistic side unless you plan to rag the car everywhere and eat tyres and brakes. My car's done 17k miles now and I've only just changed the tyres (they were down to 3mm), and it's still on its original brakes (though they will need doing soon I guess). At 5000 miles per annum I think £1000-1500 average spend is more realistic.

4. Warranty
I agree that the cost of the Audi warranty is unreasonable, particular as it's over double the cost of a porsche extended warranty. I'd only buy one if I planned to sell the car after a year or two, for peace of mind and ease of resale. If I planned to keep the car several years I wouldn't bother with it. The cost of replacement engines and gearboxes is frightening I know, but realistically what is the chance of that happening? And if it did you'd kick up a fuss with Audi CS for a goodwill gesture and if they refused take it to a specialist for a rebuild before giving your Audi dealer a personal blank cheque to ship and fit a brand new unit from Germany.

5. Depreciation
Virtually no cars are immune, and buying premium metal of any marque is probably going to hurt financially. Go to a subaru BBS and you'll see people bitching about big depreciation on their scoobys. Go to a porsche BBS and you'll read about people taking massive hits on their GT3's or even being unable to find a dealer who will bid on their car. If you spend £35k now on a low mileage 2003 car I would expect £3-4k depreciation per year max. As for cars not shifting from Audi dealers, well I keep a regular eye on their approved car website, and sensibly priced cars are definitely moving. A few weeks ago they had 34 cars in the dealer network, a couple of days ago it was 22. Audi RS have a better image than BMW M cars, are more limited in numbers and are available as estates, so longterm values will almost certainly stay more firm.

So I would say if you want an RS6 buy one. Overall running costs are unlikely to be appreciably lower in any car offering anything like the same package.

Gary.

[BigMo]

go for it, worry about the costs later.

[BMWbaiter]

Buy one NOW, you will not regret it. It isn't a lithe sports car, but it is probably the best all round performance package for those of us with families, dogs etc. I have had mine for 3 years and have no idea what to replace it with that can do everything so well and i can park it anywhere and no one takes much notice unless they are in the know.

1. Fuel … I regularly cane mine, combined with motorway and town driving and i get 18-19mpg.

2. Insurance …. £1000 is a good target for 30+ years

3. Servicing/Maintenance … My tyres lasted 14,000 and cost £200 a corner normally (kiwkfit had a 25% sale on pirrellis not long back, so i bought 2 sets). Done 40,000miles and pads/discs have lasted (ventilated discs) till now and will subsequently be changed. Servicing I think is very reasonable in comparison to BMW performance cars, or most other performance makes for that matter.

4. Warranty … depends on whether the car has had a troubled history. In my experience of performance audis, I have had 2 S and 2 RS models, you either get a car that is perfectly built and rarely goes wrong, or you rarely get one that seems to have a few probs. Look at the history of the car, if it has run well for 1000s of miles will probably be fine.


5. Depreciation
With most performance cars you are going to get 40-50% depreciation over the 1st 3 years, after that if you by carefully, the depreciation will be small and constant per year. Sold my last v6 S4 for £17,000 after 3 years (loss 55%) but my mate just sold the same car after 2 years for £13,000.

You never by a performance car with your head, if you did you would be driving a diesel Merc or a Kia Rio. Buy the bloody thing and enjoy it!

Andy

[Wolverine]

Thank you all for your responses so far.

Paul, congratulations on the sale of your car. However I disagree with your comment that RS6 prices are strong at the moment. Your car was far from an ordinary RS6 as it had £15,000 of mods. If you sold it for £40k, then it implies a car without your mods would be selling for £35-£30k, not exactly strong then.

Gary, I don’t think servicing cost of £2000 per year is overly pessimistic. Remember, I am looking to buy a used car with about 20-30k miles, so over a two year period driving a total 10,000 miles …. I would need to factor in a set of tyres, discs/pads, a service or two, and a cambelt change.

With regards to warranty, I wonder how many of you guys are now driving without one?? Maybe for the first year I would have to have one for peace of mind, after that I might agree with you and take a risk ….

Every time I look at the Audi stock list, prices keep tumbling. For example, Dulwich Audi have now a Daytonna RS6 Avant 30,000 miles for £35,995. In December this car was priced at £38,500. I also think the number of cars on there site is falling not because they are selling them, but because they are off-loading them to the trade. Is this because a lot of the stock is getting close to 3 yrs old and out of manufacturer’s warranty?

I think you guys have convinced me though, there is no other substitute …. “RS6 is not just for XMAS “ …. The question is do I take the plunge right now or do I wait a few more months for prices to stabilise a bit more.

[rs666]

You don't get return on the price of mod's when you sell, so not quite as clear cut as you state it.

If you buy from the Audi network you will get a 12 month warranty. As part of the purchase negotiate a discounted 2nd year

Having recently got mine I have to say it has exceeded my expectations, I love it. It's a keeper for me.

[KidCharlemagne]

In a discussion about opportunity cost, how does one measure in fiscal terms the unadulterated joy and face-splitting grin that we derive from leaving most Porsches, alot of Ferraris, and nearly all BMWs for dead?.

And with the dog and shopping in the boot..

[tartan_rob]

Your other option is a 2.5TDi A6 and a caterham or Elise or similiar. Horses for courses and all that....

[Wolverine]

Already own an Elise .... but need another car for bigger impending family .... and have only one car parking space available, and dont fancy running two cars (insurance x 2, servicing x2, maintenance x 2, etc).

[peterb]

Having recently got mine I have to say it has exceeded my expectations, I love it.

... and it shows!

[GaryC]

Gary, I don’t think servicing cost of £2000 per year is overly pessimistic. Remember, I am looking to buy a used car with about 20-30k miles, so over a two year period driving a total 10,000 miles …. I would need to factor in a set of tyres, discs/pads, a service or two, and a cambelt change.

Ok, fair enough then you're probably right if you look at the two year period of greatest cost, but on average if you kept the car for longer the cost would be less given the mileage you do.

I also think the number of cars on there site is falling not because they are selling them, but because they are off-loading them to the trade. Is this because a lot of the stock is getting close to 3 yrs old and out of manufacturer’s warranty?

I have a hard time believing this. We've had several new RS6 owners on this site over the past few months, and only a fraction of car owners are also into them enough to bother with a BBS. Audi main dealers actually buy in most of their used stock (70% according to one dealer I spoke to, only 30% came from trade-ins) and this was certainly the case with all the RS6's I looked at last year apart from one which had been traded in against a 6+. They slap on a years warranty as a matter of course with any Audi Approved used car over 2 years old, so that is certainly no reason to "offload" them.

The question is do I take the plunge right now or do I wait a few more months for prices to stabilise a bit more.

Go look at a few cars, listen to them start up, take some extended test drives and then decide

Gary.

[Wolverine]

I have a hard time believing this. We've had several new RS6 owners on this site over the past few months, and only a fraction of car owners are also into them enough to bother with a BBS. Audi main dealers actually buy in most of their used stock (70% according to one dealer I spoke to, only 30% came from trade-ins) and this was certainly the case with all the RS6's I looked at last year apart from one which had been traded in against a 6+. They slap on a years warranty as a matter of course with any Audi Approved used car over 2 years old, so that is certainly no reason to "offload" them.

I know some franchised dealers, whether Audi, Mercedes, BMW, etc ... are only allowed to sell cars of certain calibre on their forecourt i.e they have to be upto a certain age and mileage. If they do a part exchange and get lumbered with a non-forecourt car, they simply offload it to the trade. I am not saying for certain that 3 year old RS6s are now being offloaded by franchised dealers, but I think (but truthfully cant be 100% sure) I saw one in Autotrader that was now in the hands of a non-franchised dealer where previously it was on Audis website. Anyone know someone from Audi dealership to confirm this ....

[Rich_C]

I know the thread has moved on a bit but for what it's worth I can certainly sympathise with your dilemna. Having recently bought an RS6 I know the thought process you are going through ... mainly because I've been through the same questions although in my instance it was the wife who was asking rather than myself.

1. Fuel - I'm getting approx 20.5 mpg which is a combination of rush hour slog and the occasional blast. I usually stick in £50 worth of optimax at the weekend and that lasts me until the next weekend ... just.

2. I've not had my renewal but given the additional premium that I had to pay when I got the car I'm only expecting to pay £750 ... unless I start do a few things here and there. I'm with Admiral, 29 years old, no endorsments, full no claims and probably in one of the worst post code areas in the UK.

3. Your estimates on for servicing/maintenance are spot on with my own and I personally think are reasonable considering I've already paid £400 for 2 new tyres and I'm currently booked in for front discs (drilled) & pads at £850 plus the equivalent of a 60,000 mile service at 50,000 (the previous owner always used to service it early so I'm out of sink with the service book) at £450 including plug change. I think that'll do me for a years motoring.

4. As you've probably read I've already taken out the warranty for piece of mind sake. Even now I'm still unsure if I'll renew next year because of the cost and also because I'm giving serious consideration to a stage 3 conversion so I would want to know my dealers attitude towards mods before signing over another big cheque. But your right some of the numbers attached to major failures are pretty damn scarey but no different I expect to other premium brand manufacturers (e.g. BMW).

When I was looking at the end of last year dealers were not willing to offer much discount on RS6's. As it got closer to Christmas they seemed more willing to budge. I'm not sure if that was to do with sales targets or if the winter months are poor trading times for them.

At the end of the day I've been lusting after an RS6 since they came out so once they were hitting the £35k mark it was time for me to buy. I fully intend to keep the car a good while (although the missus doesn't believe me) and although I expect them to depreciate further I personally don't expect them to fall through the floor ... they're too rare for that. Personally I'm expecting early models like my own to level out somewhere in the £20k to £25k mark - only time will tell.

I agree with what you say - financially it has to be a heart rather than a head decision. Anyway, at the end of the day you have to do what's right for you. If I could wind the clock back 2 months would I do it again ... errr no I'd have waited 2 months and bought Pauls off him - damn my impatience ... but in all seriousness yes I would have gone down this path again but skipped the bit where I tried to sell my old car via autotrader.

Hope that helps.

Rich.

[W8PMC]

Thank you all for your responses so far.

Paul, congratulations on the sale of your car. However I disagree with your comment that RS6 prices are strong at the moment. Your car was far from an ordinary RS6 as it had £15,000 of mods. If you sold it for £40k, then it implies a car without your mods would be selling for £35-£30k, not exactly strong then.

Gary, I don’t think servicing cost of £2000 per year is overly pessimistic. Remember, I am looking to buy a used car with about 20-30k miles, so over a two year period driving a total 10,000 miles …. I would need to factor in a set of tyres, discs/pads, a service or two, and a cambelt change.

With regards to warranty, I wonder how many of you guys are now driving without one?? Maybe for the first year I would have to have one for peace of mind, after that I might agree with you and take a risk ….

Every time I look at the Audi stock list, prices keep tumbling. For example, Dulwich Audi have now a Daytonna RS6 Avant 30,000 miles for £35,995. In December this car was priced at £38,500. I also think the number of cars on there site is falling not because they are selling them, but because they are off-loading them to the trade. Is this because a lot of the stock is getting close to 3 yrs old and out of manufacturer’s warranty?

I think you guys have convinced me though, there is no other substitute …. “RS6 is not just for XMAS “ …. The question is do I take the plunge right now or do I wait a few more months for prices to stabilise a bit more.

As Damon states above, the extensive modifications would certainly make my car more saleable & appealing than a standard RS6 & would return an extra couple of thousand, but certainly not £5-10K. You will alsways see exceptions, that appear cheaper, but their is probably a reason for that. Over Xmas, Audi sold quite a few used RS6's & the price they were commanding was around & over 40K for 2 yr old examples. Newer RS6's are fetching well over £50K. My dealer actually offered me £38K as a straight purchase, so i'm sure they'd have sold mine on for well over £40K

All cars depreciate, but the biggest hit is yr1 followed by yr2, followed by yr3, after that it's fairly minimal as a value percentage. If you buy a 2 or 3yr old car, you're unlikely to suffer substantial depreciation.