In or Out...?

[bam_bam]

The EU is toxic, pull the plaster off now. Yes, it will be painful. Yes, it will hurt. But it's not like it's going fantastically well being "in", is it? The rest of the waffle is just scare-mongering. Safer? France and Brussels are in the EU, they're not looking particularly safe at the moment and the current intelligence and counter-terror units were hamstrung by EU red-tape about sharing information. At least being 'out' you can back-chanel without fear of getting a bollocking from Brussels.
Trade? No one actually knows how it will work. New markets will open some might dwindle, you Unglish are a plucky lot, don't settle for the 'same old', take absolute control and become something truly British.

Me? - "...some men aren't looking for anything logical, some men just want to watch the world burn."

[John Johnson]

The EU is toxic, pull the plaster off now. Yes, it will be painful. Yes, it will hurt. But it's not like it's going fantastically well being "in", is it? The rest of the waffle is just scare-mongering. Safer? France and Brussels are in the EU, they're not looking particularly safe at the moment and the current intelligence and counter-terror units were hamstrung by EU red-tape about sharing information. At least being 'out' you can back-chanel without fear of getting a bollocking from Brussels.
Trade? No one actually knows how it will work. New markets will open some might dwindle, you Unglish are a plucky lot, don't settle for the 'same old', take absolute control and become something truly British.

Me? - "...some men aren't looking for anything logical, some men just want to watch the world burn."

This , and like many I export so I deal with the guff and we also have no go areas in our city all ready

[R4llye]

For those who are voting out - and I have a lot of friends voting this way and respect this position - are you not alarmed at the short / medium term economic prospects?

But... The flip of that is if the EU crashes after we vote in; we're going down with the ship.

It's really tough. I think I'm voting out.

But it's such a big gamble!

That's not true.

The gamble is voting out, because no one can tell us what "out" will look like. For me the Out have failed to drawn up anything concrete as to what post Brexit will actually look like. It's vague promises of "take back control" (who will have control exactly? You, me? No, of course not)

Also, We can vote to leave at anytime. So if we vote to remain, Europe goes to <beep>, we can have another referendum to leave tomorrow if we wanted to.

We vote out now, we don't get that choice.

And anyway, even if we voted out and The Euro zone crashed, do you honestly think our economy will be protected? We are massive customers of Europe. If Europe goes to hell, in or out, it's going to effect is massively and we'll have no influence to change things from the inside.

Sure we can start trading with other countries but

A. That will take along time to set up. We're talking years if not decades
(Fact not scare mongering. Can you imagine just getting the meetings in everyone's diary let alone sort anything out?!) will our economy stand Upto that? I'm not convinced it will.
B. In those deals, what can we actually bring to the table to get ourselves a better deal than we can get as part of Europe? We can (and have) traded with China - The EU didn't stop us. And yet our government were unable to stand Upto them and protect our steal industry. We took there money for power stations while the poor loose there jobs. I fear that will be the model of all trade negotiations moving forward.

Oh, I'm massively in the Remain camp. The EU isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it's better than a country run by Gove IDS Farage and their ilk.

[Shinobi675]

I don't see it though, we're a massive financial power house and that's not because we're in the EU. The market is going to back uk stocks over European stocks if we did leave because we'd be more stable. So a leave vote would be economically astute for our financial sector (a number of financial houses have stated this).

The idea that it would take decades to set up trade agreements also isn't correct, it might take decades to arrange a fantastic super deal, but we'd still trade from day 1 because the companies within Europe need us to, do you think Audi isn't going to sell us a car on Friday? So writing the words "fact not scare mongering" on something that isn't fact and also doesn't make logical sense is just another reason for me to vote out. It is exactly that, it's Chinese whispered scare mongering!

As for being at the table to get better deals. I don't see it when the head of the table are too idealistic and not enough of realists. They haven't reacted properly to the Chinese steal, but that's a euro dictate that governments (ours included) are not allowed to subsidise the steel industry. So we simply couldn't step in to make our steal cheaper. Bonkers! And again, my angle on that is how would we have handled it if had left. Actually the same. It would be good money after bad. The Chinese steal market is so aggressively backed by the Chinese government that we'd have been under cut every time. But... At least we could have tried, carried things on a bit longer and seen.

And that's the other massive bug bear I have! It's not an election! I'm not voting for personalities. "Gove IDS Farage and their ilk" aren't going into power in a leave vote! We're not setting out government for the next millennia! So again, scare mongering words.

So basically exactly what you've repeated is why I am most likely voting out. There are no facts in what youve been told, but you've been told them in a way that has made you repeat them as if they were. Underhand tactics.

Why would I vote remain? Well actually if the remain campaign has been "if we leave, the EU is going to be even weaker and all the poor people of Greece, Spain, Italy, etc. With unemployment of 25%+ are going to suffer even more." Then I'd have been more tempted.

The way Greece has and is being treated is nuts! Yes their government were a bunch of tax dodging buggers, but the people there are massively suffering because they are in the eurozone. They can't devalue their currency, which in normal world would reduce their debt burden, and so the only option now is to reduce the actual debt. The money going to them is going straight out to pay the loan interest. Just reduce the loan and they won't need as much money! They're meant to be in it with everyone else, but everyone else is continuing to stomp on them. Are they the friends I want to keep?

[R4llye]

Germany have been able to take steps to protect its steal industry. Don't blame our governments failures on the EU. Our government could, perhaps should, have taken short term ownership of the plants and granted tax breaks on power etc. Japenese car manufacturers are here because we gave, and still do, give tax breaks to them.

Our government failed th steal industry. Not EU regulations.

Yes, we can have trade deals set up tomorrow - that will be those trade deals we will have to pay to be part of and taxes included in the short term. And It will include the free movement of people that' Norway and Switzerland have had to agree too to be part of. And all that red tape? We'll still have to abide by the rules when we are out!

The trade deals that might start to benefit us, are the long term ones that will take years to sort out and I stated as fact. Just a little common sense can see it will take a lot of timefor all vested parties to sit and discuss by proxy (because they all won't have time to be in the same room everytime, without long notice periods). Emergency measures will be put in place, but as much as The EU will want to trade with us, they will not want leaving the EU to look attractive to other countries. They will have to play hard ball and we will be forcing their hand to do so by leaving.

All the while this spreads uncertainty. Which tends to be what crashes economies. Being in Europe as a leader of it, is better than not. But that's just my opinion. And if we remain - we can still leave at a later date. It will take 27 countries to agree to let us in

(which is why Turkey can't get in btw - they won't even recognise Cyprus and we have already said we'd veto it)

Regarding running the country - yes it will mean they run it.

The leave called for Cameron to resign if he lost. His resignation will require a new leader of the Torys. Osbourne is remain so he is out also - which leaves people like IDS, Gove and Johnson as the candidates to run for PM And do all the negotiations until the next general election. Some people have good views on Johnson, but one thing is sure - he and the Torys put him on the leave campaign (ever seen yes, minister. It's still very accurate today) as succession planning. I'm not convinced someone that wants power so much should get it without a proper vote. They will would not call a snap election, and labour are too weak to force one.

Jesus, it's like people don't think there will be consequences of voting out.

[R4llye]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZJdaiJF84

As my final submission, the above video.

The boat is staying in The EU.
The Mystery box is Leave.

[chunky79]

If the UK wasn't in debt to the tune of £1.5 Trillon I'd probably vote leave, .

Why are we in this position? I personally think we need to change, not sure if leaving will be the right way, but were not heading in the right way anyway.

[Shinobi675]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZJdaiJF84

As my final submission, the above video.

The boat is staying in The EU.
The Mystery box is Leave.

Mystery box

[bam_bam]

Vote remain is the blue pill - the story ends and the powers that be remain in control.
Vote leave is the red pill - you stay in wonderland and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
This is about the current status quo losing control, and they are sh1t scared. This is the closest Britain will come to having its revolution. I can't see another chance and for those of you that think we'll get another chance to vote out of the EU, you're wrong, they won't let this happen again.
The EU is on a slow slide into something bad, I'd rather get off now and face the adversity in position of strength, that way the economy will be standing on its own when the real sh1t hits the fan.
Of course these are just the ramblings of an Internet troll, my off-line persona has read everything there is to read on the topic and all sensibilities say remain. Somehow this hasn't stopped me wanting to vote leave, while this may not be change the country should make, it seems like the only chance the country's people have been given to be defiant and steer the country, in any direction, however bad. I say take wheel, what's the worse that could happen?

[PSB1]

Vote remain is the blue pill - the story ends and the powers that be remain in control.
Vote leave is the red pill - you stay in wonderland and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
This is about the current status quo losing control, and they are sh1t scared. This is the closest Britain will come to having its revolution. I can't see another chance and for those of you that think we'll get another chance to vote out of the EU, you're wrong, they won't let this happen again.
The EU is on a slow slide into something bad, I'd rather get off now and face the adversity in position of strength, that way the economy will be standing on its own when the real sh1t hits the fan.
Of course these are just the ramblings of an Internet troll, my off-line persona has read everything there is to read on the topic and all sensibilities say remain. Somehow this hasn't stopped me wanting to vote leave, while this may not be change the country should make, it seems like the only chance the country's people have been given to be defiant and steer the country, in any direction, however bad. I say take wheel, what's the worse that could happen?

Balls out, vote leave, buy a new R8 V10+ and an RS6PE.......go down in flames. It's probably the petrol head way.*

*I've voted to remain btw.

[bam_bam]

That works for me. It's all moot, what's all important now that the people decide. It's a shame that in this day and age that facts and unbiased opinion aren't at the forefront of journalism. It was all spin, fear peddling and personal attacks.

[Shoppinit]

Referendums are retarded. If I was in a plane that had an emergency I wouldn't want the pilots to poll the passengers to get a consensus on what action to take.

[bam_bam]

Referendums are retarded. If I was in a plane that had an emergency I wouldn't want the pilots to poll the passengers to get a consensus on what action to take.

What if it were a plane full of engineers... or pilots... or engineering pilots?
If the plane emergency got to the point where the pilot considers asking the passengers, you're all fuct anyways, so I'd rather be involved in how we were all going to become a red smear on the landscape.

[Shoppinit]

Engineering pilots? *shudder* I can't think of a group more likely to bring a plane down by misguided good intentions.

"...some men aren't looking for anything logical, some men just want to watch the world burn."

Do like. And it's a tempting idea. There are always people who will profit from chaos. And chaos represents a good opportunity for some to profit.

[Shoppinit]

Bollox. Half my post disappeared. Stupid copy / paste.

It's a shame that in this day and age that facts and unbiased opinion aren't at the forefront of journalism. It was all spin, fear peddling and personal attacks.

This is exactly the problem. 99.99% of people are completely unqualified to understand the intricacies of the issues they're being asked to vote on (I include myself in this). This means that the campaigns have been targeted to appeal to people's emotive side which makes for sh!t campaigns and sh!t journalism.