Ceramics....

[Surrey Sam]

Ceramics are great and have a number of benefits over the steel option which are more prone to problems. Generally negative comments will come from people who've never owned and used a car for a decent period of time with them fitted. Personally I think they are worth the money and my next car will also have them fitted, yes they really will last around 150k with fast road use and perhaps the odd light track day here and there.

If you replace the Ceramics on a C7 with steels then you will need:

Front & Rear callipers
Front & Rear calliper holders
Front & Rear pads
Re-code vehicle to steel option

Haters will always hate, but owners who've had them will always talk positively about their virtues.

[MikeFish]

is it easy enough to change to steels? What's involved? And how much would it cost?

I'll tell ya what. As it's you, I'll do you a favour and swap my steels for your ceramics. Latest spec and low mileage. Bosh.

[TomRS]

Having driven both cars with and without ceramics, day to day they are exactly the same and if you don’t use them too hard they will last as stated for a very long time which is great and it means you don’t have to clean your wheels as much again that’s great I can see the benefit to ceramics for people who just jump in and drive the car and want the discs to last.

The difficulties come when you want to hammer it round a track every other month, this is when the ceramics (due to the compound that Audi use) will fall down.
As Ian said they will heat soak (eventually) and wreck your very expensive discs, and it really isn’t as rare as you think I know quite a few who have done it on various cars not just Audi's.
"but they use them in racing" I hear you say, yes they do but the compound is much much different in order to not fall apart at extreme "prolonged" heat << Ceramics will take around 200oc more heat than a set of steels, they also cool quicker (depending on thickness as ceramics have to be thicker in order to dissipate the heat)
Stock road going Ceramics will take the extra heat but not for any amount of prolonged time that a race compound disc would take, this is where it all gets confusing and this is where the argument gets deep.
Personally I love ceramics I think they look amazing and they if used properly will last the lifetime of ownership, but if you abuse them and like to track your car then make sure you have deep pockets as discs are stupendously expensive when compared to steels.
Also when it comes to out and out brake force the ceramics are comparable to the steels there isn’t a huge increase in brake power just because you have ceramics I think that’s misconception with them, people think that because they are bigger and ceramic that you instantly have better brakes, this is not the case ceramics are bigger and thicker because if they were the same size as the steels they wouldn’t work they wouldn’t dissipate heat and the stopping power would be reduced.
Plus let’s be honest brake force is limited by your tire adhesion so if you have poo tyres it don’t matter what bloody brakes you have you aren’t going to stop.

Sorry for the rant, but it summary Ceramics are great and I’d personally use them if it wasn’t for the simple fact they cost 4x the price of a steel setup and that the compounds are rubbish for track use and I do enjoy a good track day!!
If I was buying a new car would I look for ceramics? I honestly couldn’t say.. probably yes but I’d have to replace the rotors with a more racing focused compound from SiCom or similar.

[W8PMC]

The other benefit unless i've misread is are they not considerably lighter thus reducing unsprung weight in each corner?

I can't recall the weight saving but i seem to recall it was close to being significant enough to possibly make a somewhat noticeable difference. This could of course be made up so apologies if this is the case.

I do track my cars probably 4-5 times a year, including an annual double day in Europe (usually Spa) so i'm hoping i will notice the benefits on track. The steels on my M5 (fronts) have lasted just 20k miles, the rear pads last about 7k miles (rear pads are linked to the TC) & the front pads about 11k miles.

[rtd]

Having driven both cars with and without ceramics, day to day they are exactly the same and if you don’t use them too hard they will last as stated for a very long time which is great and it means you don’t have to clean your wheels as much again that’s great I can see the benefit to ceramics for people who just jump in and drive the car and want the discs to last.

The difficulties come when you want to hammer it round a track every other month, this is when the ceramics (due to the compound that Audi use) will fall down.
As Ian said they will heat soak (eventually) and wreck your very expensive discs, and it really isn’t as rare as you think I know quite a few who have done it on various cars not just Audi's.
"but they use them in racing" I hear you say, yes they do but the compound is much much different in order to not fall apart at extreme "prolonged" heat << Ceramics will take around 200oc more heat than a set of steels, they also cool quicker (depending on thickness as ceramics have to be thicker in order to dissipate the heat)
Stock road going Ceramics will take the extra heat but not for any amount of prolonged time that a race compound disc would take, this is where it all gets confusing and this is where the argument gets deep.
Personally I love ceramics I think they look amazing and they if used properly will last the lifetime of ownership, but if you abuse them and like to track your car then make sure you have deep pockets as discs are stupendously expensive when compared to steels.
Also when it comes to out and out brake force the ceramics are comparable to the steels there isn’t a huge increase in brake power just because you have ceramics I think that’s misconception with them, people think that because they are bigger and ceramic that you instantly have better brakes, this is not the case ceramics are bigger and thicker because if they were the same size as the steels they wouldn’t work they wouldn’t dissipate heat and the stopping power would be reduced.
Plus let’s be honest brake force is limited by your tire adhesion so if you have poo tyres it don’t matter what bloody brakes you have you aren’t going to stop.

Sorry for the rant, but it summary Ceramics are great and I’d personally use them if it wasn’t for the simple fact they cost 4x the price of a steel setup and that the compounds are rubbish for track use and I do enjoy a good track day!!
If I was buying a new car would I look for ceramics? I honestly couldn’t say.. probably yes but I’d have to replace the rotors with a more racing focused compound from SiCom or similar.

would be interesting to know Tom, when SiCom do the refurbs what compounds do they use same as OEM spec audi or a different imporved mix

[TomRS]

The other benefit unless I’ve misread is are they not considerably lighter thus reducing unsprung weight in each corner?

I can't recall the weight saving but I seem to recall it was close to being significant enough to possibly make a somewhat noticeable difference. This could of course be made up so apologies if this is the case.

I do track my cars probably 4-5 times a year, including an annual double day in Europe (usually Spa) so I’m hoping I will notice the benefits on track. The steels on my M5 (fronts) have lasted just 20k miles, the rear pads last about 7k miles (rear pads are linked to the TC) & the front pads about 11k miles.

There is obviously the unsprung mass to consider too, but moving over to my AP Setup which weighs in at 18.6Kg Vs the stock steel arrangement of 21.5Kg's
I am unsure what the ceramics weigh so can’t compare that as of yet.
If you’re doing 4-5 track days a year plus normal driving then I’d say 20k out of a set of discs isn’t bad at all, ceramics do wear out when really pressed on so don’t expect to get 150k miles when your tracking 4-5 times a year plus normal driving.
It all depends on mileage but I’d say you’d be lucky to get 60-80k when used hard, for example after an endurance race event the ceramic discs are trash because they have worn down, now I know that’s not really applicable here as the brake use on a road car vs a race car vs overall weight etc. is all different but just bear in mind you might need to stick a set on in your ownership depending on how hard you use them.
Ceramic pad life is equal if not slightly better than that of a normal steel disc so that won’t change much.

would be interesting to know Tom, when SiCom do the refurbs what compounds do they use same as OEM spec Audi or a different improved mix

Indeed mate, when I move to a C7 which hopefully will have ceramics I’ll budget to get a new set of harder compound discs.

[W8PMC]

The other benefit unless I’ve misread is are they not considerably lighter thus reducing unsprung weight in each corner?

I can't recall the weight saving but I seem to recall it was close to being significant enough to possibly make a somewhat noticeable difference. This could of course be made up so apologies if this is the case.

I do track my cars probably 4-5 times a year, including an annual double day in Europe (usually Spa) so I’m hoping I will notice the benefits on track. The steels on my M5 (fronts) have lasted just 20k miles, the rear pads last about 7k miles (rear pads are linked to the TC) & the front pads about 11k miles.

There is obviously the unsprung mass to consider too, but moving over to my AP Setup which weighs in at 18.6Kg Vs the stock steel arrangement of 21.5Kg's
I am unsure what the ceramics weigh so can’t compare that as of yet.
If you’re doing 4-5 track days a year plus normal driving then I’d say 20k out of a set of discs isn’t bad at all, ceramics do wear out when really pressed on so don’t expect to get 150k miles when your tracking 4-5 times a year plus normal driving.
It all depends on mileage but I’d say you’d be lucky to get 60-80k when used hard, for example after an endurance race event the ceramic discs are trash because they have worn down, now I know that’s not really applicable here as the brake use on a road car vs a race car vs overall weight etc. is all different but just bear in mind you might need to stick a set on in your ownership depending on how hard you use them.
Ceramic pad life is equal if not slightly better than that of a normal steel disc so that won’t change much.

would be interesting to know Tom, when SiCom do the refurbs what compounds do they use same as OEM spec Audi or a different improved mix

Indeed mate, when I move to a C7 which hopefully will have ceramics I’ll budget to get a new set of harder compound discs.

Oddly enough the rear discs are still as new. Obviously when on track the fronts will take the majority of the pounding but the brake bias must be set that the rears do most of the TC work hence getting through rear pads quickly but the discs lasting well, however the front pads last fairly well & the discs about right. For track use the pads i use are Pagid RS29's as naturally they perform considerably better than the OEM pads, however on the road very little between them.

[TomRS]

Oddly enough the rear discs are still as new. Obviously when on track the fronts will take the majority of the pounding but the brake bias must be set that the rears do most of the TC work hence getting through rear pads quickly but the discs lasting well, however the front pads last fairly well & the discs about right. For track use the pads i use are Pagid RS29's as naturally they perform considerably better than the OEM pads, however on the road very little between them.

I have nothing but praise for the RS29's they are an amazing pad and literally one of the best i've tried worth every penny! strange about the rear discs.
I cant think how they are lasting much better than your fronts... thats a head baffler! but i wouldnt complain

[vestax32]

In my case the car will probably never see a track, and if it does it will be a rare occasion. So the car will be used like a normal car most of the time, and a bit of fast road driving from time to time. If this is the case then the discs should last me the lifetime of the car, and shouldn't go wrong. Thats all I wanted to know! Cheers....

[rtd]

I have ceramics in my car and really happy I do have them the C6 is a heavy old thing - and I'm not sure how to describe it but there is just no fuss when breaking with the ceramics they just shave the speed off with no drama very happy that I went this route.

[MikeFish]

Is that a no to the swap then Vestax?

[vestax32]

Mike, haha, I haven't bought the car yet, but if I do end up with one with ceramics, I'll keep you in mind!

[MikeFish]

[boff]

Ha as a man who missed the ramics..... (can"t spec ammend) THE ONLY reason I wanted them is because they look cool and special.

The reality is that Jack Barclays are replacing loads of ramics for the rich who are smashing their RS6's around track's, and nowhere near as many Steels. I've been in a C7 when it's ramics set on fire on the nurburgring. The Ceramics are higher risk in terms of cost, chip's, overheating etc etc.

And guys

I get ramics on a Ferrari, or a McLaren - but on an RS6? unsprung weight? are you kidding me, this thing weighs two tonnes.

Or maybe I'm jealous because I couldn't spec amend.

No one though in any of the people I have spoken to have told me that the steels aren't upto the job in anyway. AND I know plenty of Porsche owners who have swapped back to steels on their 911's.