It was the other 'dunk' who had the MTM BT done recently.
Yes, noticed they were being done at Stealth too...
Dunc
Tuning, Dynos, Power Figures Moans etc....
Just a quick comment/BTDT here.
As I've found out over time, each and every engine is different. So comparing power between different cars makes no sense. What matters is the difference between your original chip and the tuned one.
About Leon Cupra R's: I have tuned several of them, a 210HP produced 214HP/272Nm (factory rated figures are 210HP/270Nm), after 2 hours on the dyno we had 245HP/365Nm with 1.3 Bar peak boost. Heatsoak on the rollers was an issue so higher boost didn't give any more HP gains.
A few 225 Cupra R's that I've done had 240-243HP as stock and 310Nm torque. They were completely original and everything was in spec. Only power/torque was much higher than the factory rated 225HP/280Nm. After 1.5-2 hours on the dyno, we've achieved 270-274HP and 380-390Nm of torque, with a 1.4 Bar peak boost.
Regarding aftermarket fuel/ignition systems: my opinion is that none of them will ever be close to what Bosch has achieved with all its Motronic generations. The reason is simple, none of these aftermarket manufacturers has been able to invest even close to the dozens of billions of Euros that Bosch has invested in developing the Motronic system throughout the years. Today's most advanced MoTeC is by far inferior to an early M2.3.2 Motronic system out of an S2, nevermind a M7.5 or M7.1 out of an S3 or RS4 for that matter. Most of these systems have no knock sensing functions, so of course, if you let the engine ping a little, you'll get more power out of it, but not longevity.
At no point over the years I've found a Motronic system being a limiting factor by itself. The only limiting factors so far have been turbos, injectors, cams, head work, etc. Mainly hardware. For me, any generation Motronic is as standalone and free-programmable as any motec/whatever aftermarket system ever, with the big advantage that the knock sensors are still there to protect the engine from damage in case you get a really bad batch of fuel for instance.
I hope this post won't be seen as an advertising post, I'm just trying to share some BTDTs...
HTH,
Mihnea
As I've found out over time, each and every engine is different. So comparing power between different cars makes no sense. What matters is the difference between your original chip and the tuned one.
About Leon Cupra R's: I have tuned several of them, a 210HP produced 214HP/272Nm (factory rated figures are 210HP/270Nm), after 2 hours on the dyno we had 245HP/365Nm with 1.3 Bar peak boost. Heatsoak on the rollers was an issue so higher boost didn't give any more HP gains.
A few 225 Cupra R's that I've done had 240-243HP as stock and 310Nm torque. They were completely original and everything was in spec. Only power/torque was much higher than the factory rated 225HP/280Nm. After 1.5-2 hours on the dyno, we've achieved 270-274HP and 380-390Nm of torque, with a 1.4 Bar peak boost.
Regarding aftermarket fuel/ignition systems: my opinion is that none of them will ever be close to what Bosch has achieved with all its Motronic generations. The reason is simple, none of these aftermarket manufacturers has been able to invest even close to the dozens of billions of Euros that Bosch has invested in developing the Motronic system throughout the years. Today's most advanced MoTeC is by far inferior to an early M2.3.2 Motronic system out of an S2, nevermind a M7.5 or M7.1 out of an S3 or RS4 for that matter. Most of these systems have no knock sensing functions, so of course, if you let the engine ping a little, you'll get more power out of it, but not longevity.
At no point over the years I've found a Motronic system being a limiting factor by itself. The only limiting factors so far have been turbos, injectors, cams, head work, etc. Mainly hardware. For me, any generation Motronic is as standalone and free-programmable as any motec/whatever aftermarket system ever, with the big advantage that the knock sensors are still there to protect the engine from damage in case you get a really bad batch of fuel for instance.
I hope this post won't be seen as an advertising post, I'm just trying to share some BTDTs...
HTH,
Mihnea
Ryan_s3 wrote:Right,my thoughts on s3's and tuning in general;
As barry states a regular chipped s3 runs 250bhp with many mods etc you could possibly get 270/275(exhaust,de-cat,improved ic) but this is the max the standard turbo will acheive.You WILL acheive more power at 1.2-1.3 bar than silly 1.5 bar that a few companies reccommend.My car(same spec) made 23bhp and 20lb/t more on amd's rollers than owens =fact.I think that 60bhp loss on a haldex equipped car is correct.
Tuning is a specialised field and therefore you should seek specialists,find out where race teams take there business because this is the place you want to go(have you ever seen race cars at the places you go?).A basic chip should will improve performance but you get what you pay for .If you want the best mappers with the best equipment it WILL NOT be cheap.In my opinion (although i don't know rs4's) the best gains from a rs4 irrespective of mods will be a full standalone ems.The only one that will work with DBW is motec but fortunately they are the best.Now this route will be future proof as it can handle bigger injectors/turbos etc ,it can run anti-lag/traction etc.It will cost you approx £3k but i'm sure it will be the best 3k you could possibly spend on modifcations and will bring the absolute best possible performance that can be acheived from your car.
Tuners i recommend,Owens Developments(talk to mark),G-Force,Dastek uk(scotland).
Ben,
The figures I've seen so far are:
RS4: 65-110HP losses
S2: 80HP losses at 5500 RPM
S2: 108HP at 6800 RPM
S2: 138HP at 7600 RPM
Leon Cupra R: ~45-50HP losses at 5800-6000 RPM
Regarding the numbers that have been posted, I do agree that a car cannot lose more HP than it's putting out at the wheels, IMHO it makes no sense and it's anti-mechanical if such a thing happens.
HTH,
Mihnea
The figures I've seen so far are:
RS4: 65-110HP losses
S2: 80HP losses at 5500 RPM
S2: 108HP at 6800 RPM
S2: 138HP at 7600 RPM
Leon Cupra R: ~45-50HP losses at 5800-6000 RPM
Regarding the numbers that have been posted, I do agree that a car cannot lose more HP than it's putting out at the wheels, IMHO it makes no sense and it's anti-mechanical if such a thing happens.
HTH,
Mihnea
bjacks wrote:@Mihnea
What are your views on wheel drag and the information posted earlier in this thread?
Cheers
Ben
My thoughts exactly!S2tuner wrote:Ben,
The figures I've seen so far are:
RS4: 65-110HP losses
S2: 80HP losses at 5500 RPM
S2: 108HP at 6800 RPM
S2: 138HP at 7600 RPM
Leon Cupra R: ~45-50HP losses at 5800-6000 RPM
Regarding the numbers that have been posted, I do agree that a car cannot lose more HP than it's putting out at the wheels, IMHO it makes no sense and it's anti-mechanical if such a thing happens.
HTH,
Mihnea
Star Performance Misano Red RS4
548bhp 490lbft
548bhp 490lbft
hi mihnea,
Interesting points but i have to disagree with you in terms of tuning and the original ecu(nearly all rally cars/teams use motec).The ecu may be more complicated but it's having to deal with more issues,in reality you would retain the stock ecu for dashboard functions but the motec would be used to alter fueling/timing use anti-lag.I mean ideally if you could utilise the original ecu to map the car(bespoke) this would be ideal,but who offers this?Certainly no-one in the uk offers this,jabbasport utilise; http://www.dimsport.com/prodotti/chiptuning.aspx
which is a form of what you speak of but you only alter a few tables not all of them.
At the end of the day tuning is going to be detrimental to emission/reliabilty thats just the nature of the work.
I'd be interested in your products and where to get them,are they available in the uk?
Interesting points but i have to disagree with you in terms of tuning and the original ecu(nearly all rally cars/teams use motec).The ecu may be more complicated but it's having to deal with more issues,in reality you would retain the stock ecu for dashboard functions but the motec would be used to alter fueling/timing use anti-lag.I mean ideally if you could utilise the original ecu to map the car(bespoke) this would be ideal,but who offers this?Certainly no-one in the uk offers this,jabbasport utilise; http://www.dimsport.com/prodotti/chiptuning.aspx
which is a form of what you speak of but you only alter a few tables not all of them.
At the end of the day tuning is going to be detrimental to emission/reliabilty thats just the nature of the work.
I'd be interested in your products and where to get them,are they available in the uk?
S2tuner wrote:Just a quick comment/BTDT here.
As I've found out over time, each and every engine is different. So comparing power between different cars makes no sense. What matters is the difference between your original chip and the tuned one.
About Leon Cupra R's: I have tuned several of them, a 210HP produced 214HP/272Nm (factory rated figures are 210HP/270Nm), after 2 hours on the dyno we had 245HP/365Nm with 1.3 Bar peak boost. Heatsoak on the rollers was an issue so higher boost didn't give any more HP gains.
A few 225 Cupra R's that I've done had 240-243HP as stock and 310Nm torque. They were completely original and everything was in spec. Only power/torque was much higher than the factory rated 225HP/280Nm. After 1.5-2 hours on the dyno, we've achieved 270-274HP and 380-390Nm of torque, with a 1.4 Bar peak boost.
Regarding aftermarket fuel/ignition systems: my opinion is that none of them will ever be close to what Bosch has achieved with all its Motronic generations. The reason is simple, none of these aftermarket manufacturers has been able to invest even close to the dozens of billions of Euros that Bosch has invested in developing the Motronic system throughout the years. Today's most advanced MoTeC is by far inferior to an early M2.3.2 Motronic system out of an S2, nevermind a M7.5 or M7.1 out of an S3 or RS4 for that matter. Most of these systems have no knock sensing functions, so of course, if you let the engine ping a little, you'll get more power out of it, but not longevity.
At no point over the years I've found a Motronic system being a limiting factor by itself. The only limiting factors so far have been turbos, injectors, cams, head work, etc. Mainly hardware. For me, any generation Motronic is as standalone and free-programmable as any motec/whatever aftermarket system ever, with the big advantage that the knock sensors are still there to protect the engine from damage in case you get a really bad batch of fuel for instance.
I hope this post won't be seen as an advertising post, I'm just trying to share some BTDTs...
HTH,
Mihnea
Ryan_s3 wrote:Right,my thoughts on s3's and tuning in general;
As barry states a regular chipped s3 runs 250bhp with many mods etc you could possibly get 270/275(exhaust,de-cat,improved ic) but this is the max the standard turbo will acheive.You WILL acheive more power at 1.2-1.3 bar than silly 1.5 bar that a few companies reccommend.My car(same spec) made 23bhp and 20lb/t more on amd's rollers than owens =fact.I think that 60bhp loss on a haldex equipped car is correct.
Tuning is a specialised field and therefore you should seek specialists,find out where race teams take there business because this is the place you want to go(have you ever seen race cars at the places you go?).A basic chip should will improve performance but you get what you pay for .If you want the best mappers with the best equipment it WILL NOT be cheap.In my opinion (although i don't know rs4's) the best gains from a rs4 irrespective of mods will be a full standalone ems.The only one that will work with DBW is motec but fortunately they are the best.Now this route will be future proof as it can handle bigger injectors/turbos etc ,it can run anti-lag/traction etc.It will cost you approx £3k but i'm sure it will be the best 3k you could possibly spend on modifcations and will bring the absolute best possible performance that can be acheived from your car.
Tuners i recommend,Owens Developments(talk to mark),G-Force,Dastek uk(scotland).
360bhp 342lb/tRight , got my graphs from QST and my figures are these:
REVO:
Wheel Power : 181.6
Drag Power : 72.4
Torque: 391.8 Nm
BHP: 248.6
Stock mode:
Wheel Power: 171.2
Drag Power: 62.2
Torque: 307.1 Nm
BHP: 228.8
Which seems correct to me. Only question I guess is why do I have more drag losses in chipped mode then in standard mode?
Both runs done back to back
Dunc
REVO:
Wheel Power : 181.6
Drag Power : 72.4
Torque: 391.8 Nm
BHP: 248.6
Stock mode:
Wheel Power: 171.2
Drag Power: 62.2
Torque: 307.1 Nm
BHP: 228.8
Which seems correct to me. Only question I guess is why do I have more drag losses in chipped mode then in standard mode?
Both runs done back to back
Dunc
interesting results dunc,seems to tally with my 59bhp losses,although i did have 185ATW and 244fly.I don't see why the losses should be any difference between stock and chipped??By the way dunc was this just a basic revo re-map ,ie no sps?So it was a 95ron remap?Did you run opitmax before the RR test?
360bhp 342lb/thi again,
I know what jabbasport use, and I know it's no good, because they are only given a list of maps with no functions etc etc.
Seriously, you guys don't have anyone in the UK to do custom tuning on Audi ECUs? I've been doing this for nearly 3 years now....
I don't use the same tools as jabbasport, but an open system from Germany that allows me to modify as many parameters/maps/variables as I want to. Of course, motronic has no anti-lag functions, but you only need it in certain conditions. regarding remapping, I can assure you you don't need MoTeC in order to have your car mapped properly. This is only what people who have no clue how Motronic works will tell you.
Regarding my products/services, they are already available in the UK whenever I am in the UK, which happens quite a couple of times a year...
Cheers,
Mihnea
I know what jabbasport use, and I know it's no good, because they are only given a list of maps with no functions etc etc.
Seriously, you guys don't have anyone in the UK to do custom tuning on Audi ECUs? I've been doing this for nearly 3 years now....
I don't use the same tools as jabbasport, but an open system from Germany that allows me to modify as many parameters/maps/variables as I want to. Of course, motronic has no anti-lag functions, but you only need it in certain conditions. regarding remapping, I can assure you you don't need MoTeC in order to have your car mapped properly. This is only what people who have no clue how Motronic works will tell you.
Regarding my products/services, they are already available in the UK whenever I am in the UK, which happens quite a couple of times a year...
Cheers,
Mihnea
Ryan_s3 wrote:hi mihnea,
Interesting points but i have to disagree with you in terms of tuning and the original ecu(nearly all rally cars/teams use motec).The ecu may be more complicated but it's having to deal with more issues,in reality you would retain the stock ecu for dashboard functions but the motec would be used to alter fueling/timing use anti-lag.I mean ideally if you could utilise the original ecu to map the car(bespoke) this would be ideal,but who offers this?Certainly no-one in the uk offers this,jabbasport utilise; http://www.dimsport.com/prodotti/chiptuning.aspx
which is a form of what you speak of but you only alter a few tables not all of them.
At the end of the day tuning is going to be detrimental to emission/reliabilty thats just the nature of the work.
I'd be interested in your products and where to get them,are they available in the uk?
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