Tuning, Dynos, Power Figures Moans etc....

[RS4_Barry]

Right thought we'd better move this discussion to a better place. Over the years I've had a good few VAG group cars most of which have been modified in some way or another and I reckon I've used just about all major VAG tuning companies in the UK. Now I'm not gonna name names or have a dig at anybody but from what I have read there are a lot of people out there who ain't got what they paid for in terms of performance. Over the years I have had loads of cars remapped / tuned and checked independently at different dynos and had some pretty shocking results. The three worst results I have seen/owned were:

B6 S4
Standard Power Output 344bhp 303lbsft
Car was remapped and had a fulll exhaust system fitted.
Cost of mods approx £1400
Projected Power Output ~380bhp ~360lbft
Once the work was complete I drove the car and found it to be marginally better to drive and the way the power was delivered had been improved. but............. after having the car independently checked and this was done on two seperate rr's the figures were nowhere near claimed.
Real Power Output 353bhp 302lbsft
There was nothing wrong with the car whatsoever as it made it's standard numbers before any work commenced - I was assured though that if I spent additional money on the cats I should see a healthier increase also I was told it may get better as the car got more miles on it but I doubt it ever got 30bhp and 60lbft better!

R32
I didn't own this car but met the owner at a dyno day and he was pretty cheesed off to say the least!
Claimed Power Output 300bhp (can't remember what the torque was meant to be)
This chap had spent around £2.5K on his R32 thinking he had a 300bhp car. His car made 264bhp and as far as I know he is still battling with the company concerned.

B5 RS4
Power Output Claimed by Tuning Company 520bhp 630Nm
Power Output Claimed by UK Importer 509bhp 625Nm
This conversion was carried out on my own car at a cost of around £10K. Parts involved: New Turbos, manifolds, head work, fuel pump, fuel regulator etc etc.
After driving the car for a bit I just couldn't understand why it didn't feel quite right. Had the car checked on 2 rr's on 4 or 5 different occasions and it never returned the same result twice always coming in with a bhp figure of between 430 and 460bhp with around 580Nm torque - nowhere near what was claimed.

There must be loads of us "enthusiasts" out there with the same issues paying for sommething we haven't got. I've seen it all - fluffed dyno figures (it's amazing what a quick flick of the handbrake or nudge of the steering wheel can do to a flywheel figure!), bodged maps which will eventually wreck your engine where does it stop?
As enthusiasts it seems crazy that we don't think twice about paying between £400 and £1200 for a remap which we are told does x but in actual fact it does y it's not on.

Thing is that the tuning industry isn't big enough in britain - I can't see it ever being backed by any authority so companies will continue to get away with fleecing the unaware. Even if you do find out that you have been fleeced and haven't got what you paid for it's very difficult to try and make a legal complaint about it. Most people don't have the foggiest what your on about - trading standards/consumer rights say you may have a case under consumer law but shy away from giving you concrete advice as they don't know what you are talking about.
I know I'm moaning and have upset a couple of people in the process but over the years I've spent tens of thousands of pounds on what is essentially a hobby and to be honest a lot of that money should have just been pi**ed against a wall!
So I think in essence we all just have to thorough in research before commiting to a product and if you don't get what you paid for stamp your feet a bit - let people know your displeasure cos even if you don't get your issue fixed other users/owners may not get themselves into the same unpleasent situation.
Be careful folks it's a war zone out there and the cowboys definately outnumber the indians!!

[RS4_Barry]

brought this over from "the other thread"

Ok.

I'll try and remember what I was posting when this thread "disappeared" for a while.

My car lost 225BHP on the dyno at QST, more than the wheel power actually (206BHP). I can't believe that this is really the case surely.
Does this mean that my car is also a duffer Barry?

There is absolutely no way on this earth that a RS4 will have a larger transmission loss than it has WHP. I dug out a remap for my previous RS4 which was dyno'd when standard it made 278hp at the wheels with 115hp transmission loss. The calculated flywheel figure was 393hp which is about right as once they loosen up most RS4's make around 390-400hp stock. Is your car standard or remapped? Do you have a graph as honestly (don't mind if you don't believe me ) that isn't right.

[RS4_Barry]

and this

Just as a point of interest my mildly chipped s3(haldex) lost 59bhp through the tranmission, figures were 185atw and 244 at the fly.This dyno test was performed at Owen Developments who do all the tuning on the mr-400 evo for mitsubishi and i consider one of the best.

Thats about spot on Haldex equipped cars have much less transmission loss than torsion based cars. Chipped S3's vary fram 175-195 ATW depending on whos chip whether the exhaust/cat has been changed.

[sitas3]

Interesting comments Barry. In the case of your RS4, do you think you'd have had a better experience had you taken your car direct to the tuners in Germany rather than their UK agent?

[DaveP]

I think the above experiences only increase the need for some proper logging by users as has been suggested in the RS4 forum. The more knowledge we have as users, the better equipped we are to choose who does things to our cars and in fact what works.

Same goes for suspension/brakes etc etc..

Get your VAG-COM's out people

[simple1]

Welcome to add that to my list of technical gatherings if you like............

[RS4_Barry]

Interesting comments Barry. In the case of your RS4, do you think you'd have had a better experience had you taken your car direct to the tuners in Germany rather than their UK agent?

Doubt it as AKAIK it's the same guy that maps the car and the main issue with my car was the map wasn't right.

[DaveP]

Does your car feel substantially different now Barry ?

[RS4_Barry]

On the other hand though looking at various dyno plots and listening to others comments there may be a problem with the dyno that is used which means that the mapper would not be getting the correct information while mapping the car.

[DuncS3]

Are we not going to say what chips/packages the cars had?

I have REVO oem map on my car and they quote 265 bhp and 287 lb/ft

My car has been RR'd about 4 times and I have had the following results:

251 bhp low boost 9
234 bhp high boost 6
252 bhp high boost 6
248 bhp high boost 6

228 bhp (in standard mode)
I did once get 260 bhp with a non standard map which is no longer on my car

No where near 265 bhp which ultimately is what you pay for isnt it? what they advertise...

Now the disclaimer bit - my car feels absolutely fine and has great torque which makes it feel fast. I also understand that other factors and differences could affect RR results (its a lottery).

Dunc

[RS4_Barry]

Another thing which is quite interesting is that (correct me if I'm wrong) but most tuning companies don't seem to check the fueling on the cars. I have had two RS4's both mapped by different people and both ran very rich although my current car was running dangerously rich. It's fairly simple to check this using a wideband lambda meter. For what they cost to buy it possibly may be worth getting a hold of one as it gives you realtime lambda readings from which you can see how your car is fueling. Mine was flooding with fuel and far far too rich black tailpipes etc!!! It's not uncommon for a remap to run a little rich for safety reasons but jeesh I was getting about 12mpg!!!!

[bjacks]

brought this over from "the other thread"

Ok.

I'll try and remember what I was posting when this thread "disappeared" for a while.

My car lost 225BHP on the dyno at QST, more than the wheel power actually (206BHP). I can't believe that this is really the case surely.
Does this mean that my car is also a duffer Barry?

There is absolutely no way on this earth that a RS4 will have a larger transmission loss than it has WHP. I dug out a remap for my previous RS4 which was dyno'd when standard it made 278hp at the wheels with 115hp transmission loss. The calculated flywheel figure was 393hp which is about right as once they loosen up most RS4's make around 390-400hp stock. Is your car standard or remapped? Do you have a graph as honestly (don't mind if you don't believe me ) that isn't right.

I do believe you as I don't think it is right also. I was just wondering how the flywheel figure of 431 (corrected to 419) was calculated from the WHP. The car is tuned so the figures are pretty much spot on.
I'll scan the graph and post it up.

On another point, if most standard cars make nearly 400BHP anyway, stage 1 tune is all about torque then really isn't it?

Is there ANY tuning company you trust mate?

Cheers

Ben

[RS4_Barry]

S3's are funny cars though (no offence) but they are quite hard to dyno correctly due to the haldex. I have seen many chipped S3's but around 250-260 is pretty much the norm.
Do you have exhaust/cats done?

[DuncS3]

No cats or exhaust (as I dont beleive they give you the gains quoted either)

From my point of view I feel 250ish is fair enough in real terms but it consistently underperforms against other chips on the same days (on the dyno), for example on AMDs rollers (where they ask whats in your car) Pauls AMD car got 270+ bhp when mine got 251 bhp - big difference for two cars with remaps

Makes you want to change maps because rightly or wrongly it puts doubts in your head but i guess ultimately its not worth it as to be honest I dont trust too many tuners

Dunc

[RS4_Barry]

I do believe you as I don't think it is right also. I was just wondering how the flywheel figure of 431 (corrected to 419) was calculated from the WHP. The car is tuned so the figures are pretty much spot on.
I'll scan the graph and post it up.

On another point, if most standard cars make nearly 400BHP anyway, stage 1 tune is all about torque then really isn't it?

The flywheel power is estimated by calculating the amount of drag through the transmission when the clutch is dipped at the end of the run. Drag hp + Wheel hp = Calculated Flywheel Power
To have 206 Wheel hp with 225hp drag is almost like having the handbrake on when driving.
The MTM standard chips Stage 1,2 and 3 are very good and do make good numbers mine was a stage 1 when I bought it and I upgraded it to stage 3 and it always made roughly what they said it would. Stage 1 gives a good gain tbh approx 30hp and a big dollop of torque is pretty good IMO. But yes on the stage one I'd agree it's all about the torque.

Is there ANY tuning company you trust mate?

.....not any more talk is cheap!! I like concrete evidence. I am very happy with the work that star performance have done on my car. I have had the car checked on 2 dynos and both have given a similar output so I'm happy. Pluss more importantly my butt dyno is satisfied.