APR MTM GIAC AMS Chip Shootout Info

[Andiroo]

Hey Dunc, that's the impression I get too - will have to wait and see if the APR/Revo type method does inflict any descernable damage over a number of miles using constant higher boost rather than the overboost method - personally I hope it's somethin about nothing, and the detonation probs (if any) get sorted [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. It's a similar situation with Sportec/AmD/MTM with RS4's - the AmD and MTM peak earlier then tail off, whereas the Sportec holds 1.4bar with the gasflowed turbos and revs to 7000rpm.

It's always nice to compare different offerings, and you're right Thorney, each person will defend their choice - up to a point.

For instance, I chose Sportec coz of the whole theme, and the fact they had a rolling road in-house. In hindsight I have no regrets on the 466bhp and subsequent 475bhp mods I had done - especially with the torque curve being so flat. But now I'm looking for well over 500bhp, Sportec cant accomodate, so it's AmD or MTM, and AmD helped on the intercooler upgrade, with a RR - so it's those guys I chose. Also it seems MTM mods to this level need to go to Germany to get done - and Kim never answered my Question time posts about engine mods on the MTM600 [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Obviously I could have skipped the Sportec route and gone straight for 500+ power, but at the time, it wasnt available (even now it's a development vehicle with trial and error).

Maybe Revo could have helped, but the feeling I get is they are more eletrical than mechanical biased, and probably wouldn't want to strip engines and build hybrid turbos - not sure really.

Andiroo

[DuncS3]

Andy any chance of a quick lesson in 'overboost'? Or is it simply a spike type thing?

I'll consider switching my S3 to stock mode tomorrow then, keep the high boost for track days - see thats a neat feature [img]images/graemlins/clap.gif[/img]

Dunc [img]images/graemlins/s3addict.gif[/img]

[Andiroo]

It seems that the tuners that do it hold the wastegate actuator(s) closed to a certain boost level, and then revert to a more acceptable level thru the rev range. This helps spool up the turbos quicker and therefore give quicker response off the line. Not so noticeable on bhp plots, but easy to see on torque plots - the torque curve increase almost vertically to a peak, then tails off quite quickly. Doesn't seem to affect reliability too much (apart from hoses [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) as the peak boost isn't occuring when the engine is at full load.

Andiroo

[TimJMS]

Good points Thorney.

I am sure that any testimonial will be valid and accurate with no intention to deceive,

As ever though, all we have are dyno plots without any real empirical evidence. I still feel that all too often when just chipping, the dyno plot acts as the placebo which causes people to "feel" as if their car is faster than beforehand.

If the Revo chip can be set to genuinely revert to standard, then it will be the best measure (when combined with an AP22 or similar) of "bang for buck" when merely chipping without any recourse to further mods.

[sitas3]

Detonation is not and should not be something you live with - it kills engines, no matter how slight

Andy, is there something we should be looking out for here? does detonation happen under certain circumstances for example?

I've had the Vag-com connected and I've been monitoring the knock sensors on my car but they don't rise above 3% - under heavy load.

BTW, I spoke with Revo regarding any known Detonation problems last week, and they hadn't heard of any apart from Ben's problems that were attributed to the dodgy MAF. However, they're really going to tell me if 50 cars had! [img]images/graemlins/3flypigs.gif[/img]

I now just think this tuning stuff is like a black secret art - you never seem to get consistent answers from anyone regading it and those who think they know and seemingly paid lots for it are just happy to publicly slate others until all the facts are known [img]images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[DuncS3]

Just re-read Bushys post about REVO being like a virus!!!

What does that make AMD then when they (in your analogy), basically secretly solder on a parasite daughterboard to your existing chip

Cannot agree with your analogy there sir

Dunc [img]images/graemlins/s3addict.gif[/img]

[PhilT]

Hmmmm. A virus is self replicating code, I wonder if an unmodified car would become modified by just being next to a modified car, I think not.... [img]images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

However you are correct that some virii modify the calls into a script/program to divert the execution to the additional code.

I think the analogy of it being similar to a firmware upgrade is probably best.

[Andiroo]

SiTa, I can understand your frustration and annoyance - really pisses me off too, that's why my earlier post said that we will not condone any tuner wars on here, just the facts (true facts if at all possible [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Managed to dig this out from some of the tuning archives I've got, and this is specific to turbos cars - so explains the causes quite well ;

Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the air/fuel mixture ahead of the flame front (combustion by explosion rather than controlled burning). It occurs after the combustion process has started and is usually located in the last area to burn. As the flame front advances across the chamber, the pressure (and temperature) in the remaining unburned mixture rises. If the auto ignition temperature is exceeded, this remaining mixture explodes. The audible ping (metallic clanking noise) is the explosion's shockwave.

Detonation is very destructive. No metals in existence, forged pistons, special head gaskets can withstand sustained detonation. If you hear detonation your best measure is to temporarily back off, before looking for its cause.

Detonation can be caused by the following:

1. Poor Fuel. A fuels octane rating is a measure of its resistance to spontaneous combustion. The greater the octane, the greater the resistance. For extreme boost levels it is recommended you use either an octane booster or some type of AVGAS.

2. Ignition Timing. Improper ignition timing can cause detonation. A lot of the late model turbo cars have knock sensors built in that automatically <beep> the ignition when knock is sensed, to prevent damage.

3. Lean air/fuel ratio. Lean running will promote detonation. Lean mixtures increases heat which increases the chances of detonation.

4. Exhaust Gas back pressure. A build up of back pressure can cause heat to build up, which can aggravate detonation.

5. Intercooler. Anything that lowers the intercoolers efficiency will increase the chances of detonation. eg paper covering intercooler.

6. Ambient Heat. High performance turbo systems often run near the detonation threshold. Hot days can push the car over this thresh.

Sums it up pretty well I think....

Witht regard to APR and Revo I think they only have their own customers to blame, if indeed there is a det problem under certain circumstances. Think about it like this - you have a Revo upgrade, say it's the bollocks, then mention that you have noticed detonation (no matter how slight), and just leave it at that. If a subsequent post indicated what the fix was, I would be a lot happier to look at the Revo route - but as yet, nothing.

The actual posts in question, on Tyresmoke are as follows (not out of context, just plain facts)

"Says a lot for millers and optimax and Revo that I have seen hi boost 9 and timing @ 9 with no knock. Well, a tiny (acceptable) amount of knock that adjusted itself out."

"I think mine is giving a bit of noise too, Im getting it in 2nd gear at around 4k rpm, sounds like a knocking sound low down in the engine. Im using Optimax. Heard this noise yesterday and was trying to look out for it today too but never heard anything. Plus it felt as if the power had been reduced at the time when this was occuring."

Maybe it's the air/fuel mix, maybe the ignition, but there's definitely something not quite right, which at the moment is putting me off looking at this route (if indeed there is a route I can take with Revo). If the guys were to come on here and tell me what the fix is, maybe supported by Revo, I'd be quite happy to accept the facts as they are, especially if they are different to the story I am seeing [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It's not a witch hunt, or a tuner war, just an attempt to get all the facts out, which hopefully some day will take the "Black Art" tag away from the subject [img]images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Andiroo

[Joules]

Yep.. I think that covers the causes of DET.

I welcome these thought provoking responses and I too would like to hear as response from REVO.

If anyone is particularly concerned with an existing install they could consider fitting a knock link. The latter basically a piezo microphone that is attached to the block and then a tuned box of tricks to filter out frequencies of standard engine noise and highlight by means of an LED display actual knock (DET).

I think they cost around £100.

[sitas3]

Andy, thanks for the interesting outline of Detonation - if this occurs to anyone's engine, then it looks worrying.

Again, I'd be very interested to know if this stuff only happens under full boost/engine load or can it happen any time?

but there's definitely something not quite right, which at the moment is putting me off looking at this route

Really? what is this definite thing? Is this based upon a few posts made?

Have you rang Revo yourself to talk to them regarding this? If so, what did they say? Please tell us all

Have you contacted the posters of the messages on Tyresmoke to ask them about this prior to your posting about apparent 'Detonation' problems?

Please, let's all just stick to the facts that are known - not the presumed ones.

One thing I have learned from this is that maybe it is better to have a rolling road analysis done - this way then maybe Ben's MAF problems could have been picked up sooner, and we'd have all been the wiser without worrying about things that may or may not happen.

I personally have accepted that the various tweaks made to my car will have an ultimate effect on the engine's wear and tear - I'm now on my third dump valve whereas my old untuned S3 was still running with one after 10k miles. I'm happy to take the risk, but admittedly I'd feel safer with all the facts known.

Sorry, I don't wish/trying not to be confrontational but it's hard for me ( [img]images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img])

[Thorney]

Rumours are rumours I guess. I'm sure all the tuners have been beset with rumours of problems with their products at some time or another, just happens to be Revo at the moment. Mind you, its natural to be cautious with any new product, sometimes with engines 'early adopters' = 'early exploders' [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm sure when AMD/MTM/Sportec first developed their product the test cars had all kinds of problems, none of them would've seen the colour of Thorney's money until they'd sorted it [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Please don't take it that I'm slagging Revo, how can I, I've never used it, but rumours aren't things you can just ignore and as long as you don't perpetuate them by repeating them as facts (also libel btw) then there is little you can do. I really hope they get it sorted, its a clever idea, and whilst its hardly new its certainly a new stage in VAG car tuning.

[DuncS3]

Agree re the early adoptors comments - but for me I went with REVO (as an early adoptor), only because it was the guys behind APR Europe, ie they had experience in VAG already.
Is it like AMD as amdtechnik for Minis in a roundabout sort of way? ie their reputation should go with them?
I also didnt think the fact they tune via the ODB port would add any extra risk compared to soldering a chip into the ECU.

Dunc [img]images/graemlins/s3addict.gif[/img]

[Thorney]

Oh yeah I agree with all that, however it does assume that the Revo code is based upon APR code and wouldn't that cause Revo a problem with ownership? I'm assuming the Revo code is new and different to APR's (bit unfair to start a business with your old employers product [img]images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]) and therefore new and essentially untested?

I certainly agree that if the OBD input is used then it shouldn't make any difference to a hard wired chip, however I'm not an expert. [img]images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] and have alswys maintained its the map not the manner its installed.

[Andiroo]

No probs mate, I can see your point of view [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]....partly, and you are right - just the facts, so here we go [img]images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Unfortunately it seems detonation can occur at any time dependant on which conditions are not met - could even happen when not on full boost [img]images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

BTW I haven't tried contacting the guys in question, I assumed that the posts saying they had detonation, actually meant they had detonation [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] if they had meant something else, then surely they would have said their exhaust was rattling instead [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Their words, not mine, dont see where you're coming from mate. I am assuming you are called SiTaS3 because you are saying so- am I correct in assuming that is a fact?

Like I said before I would welcome Revo's response (sure he's posted before) "from the horses mouth" - that would be cool. Same as the response I will get from AmD regarding the "quality" issue mentioned earlier, some how, some way, they will respond directly as this is the best way to have a qualified factual response.

Done some digging on the knock sensor info I have relating to Skylines, and I believe the figure of +3% relates to how much the ignition is advanced to cure the detonation. If this is true please be aware that knock sensors do have a limit in what they can advance the ignition by - so if it actually needs to advanced +5% to cure detonation, and the sensors parameters will only give +3%, a problem will not show on your diagnostics giving you the all clear, even though you still have detonation [img]images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Look forward to hearing your thoughts mate [img]images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Andiroo

[Inigo]

Hello all [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Just found out about this post - my car ISN'T knocking. Things are mad at work so i can't post a proper reply but to set the record straight - whilst data logging and with the Revo cranked to hi boost 9 and timing wound right up to 9 (optimax and millers, of course) and thrashing the pants off of it Vag-Com registerd a minute trace of knock which lasted about 2 seconds before the software retarded the timing slightly. Bear in mind that this was immediately after changing the settings and the car was merely adapting. It hasn't knocked since and wasn't knocking before that even when i was running a ton of boost and timing at 7 or 8.

Cheers

Inigo