A terrible morning!

[scaghead]

49 in a 30 is taking the piss in my eyes.. and you only got three points...count yourself lucky victor..i got the same for doing 59 on a 50 limit dual carriageway

[victor2vt]

scraghead, if you saw the road you would agree with me that it should be a 40mph limit, it's not busy at anytime of the day or night, except on match days, it's extremely wide and you hardly ever see a pedestrian !!
I would support speed limits that were up to date with today's cars capabilities, and would support 20mph near schools, hospitals, old people's homes etc 40mph in most of the current 30mph areas and 90mph on our motorways and everyone over the age of 60 to take the current driving test every 5 years.

[Timster]

and everyone over the age of 60 to take the current driving test every 5 years.

.... and women who have children and own a mobile phone.

eh... come on... we're all thinking it.

[PetrolDave]

I would support speed limits that were up to date with today's cars capabilities.

+1

The 70mph limit was set in the early 1960s soon after the M1 opened, when cars had drum brakes and crossply tyres - modern cars can stop in distances so much shorter than the (idiotic) ones in the Highway Code that IMHO it is insane that 70 hasn't been increased considerably.

But then the "speed kills" lobby have been vocal and effective at gettoing over their (wrong) point - speed doesn't kill, it's not stopping soon enough that kills.

[adsgreen]

But the counter argument to this is that although cars are more capable, there are considerably more of them.

Also with the added safety features drivers will (and do) take more risks. Kinda see that in the 60's where if you had a minor bump the car would explode spontaneously.

I agree that speed doesn't kill, but it does affect the outcome. In what I do part of that is risk analysis which boils down to "chance of something happening x impact cost should it happen = risk". So even if you were to assume that increasing speed didn't change the chance of an incident (which is debatable) it most certainly increases the severity of the outcome.

The other part is that a person is sensible but people are stupid. As such you have to legislate for the norm and based on my experiences, most drivers are not half as capable as they think they are. A good indication here is that if drivers as a whole were responsible then accidents in bad weather would be broadly the same as fine (as you'd expect drivers to drive to the conditions) but thats not the case.

The speed argument is a simple one as it's a yes or no answer - you are either not over or over the limit. I agree far more attention should be placed on inappropriate driving such as tailgating and dangerous driving but it's harder to get so clear cut.

90mph sounds great on motorways but if you were to compare say the M40 and the M1/M25 then to me such a blanket rule doesn't work. The M40 is fortunate in that it doesn't have the haulage traffic other motrways have and I would easily expect a 90mph limit to be implementable safely. On the others it just increases the speed differential between the trucks and cars which would be problematic at best.

The key thing I noticed in Germany and the main reason Autobahns work is down mainly to the attitude of the german drivers. The road manners were considerably better out there than here with no lane hogging, generally good road position and indicating. I don't think the same principle would work here.

[PetrolDave]

The speed argument is a simple one as it's a yes or no answer.

With the modern emphasis on road policing by technology and not people that's true. But are the roads safer since the number of traffic police was greatly reduced? - the accident, injury and death figures suggest that they are not safer.

Since it's mostly behaviour that causes accidents not speed (speed affects the outcome) then surely it's changing behaviour that should be focused on and not just a black/white 1mph "too fast" line in the sand?

On the one occasion I have been stopped by a traffic policeman (in an unmarked car) we had a sensible adult discussion and he came to the conclusion that doing any more than giving me a verbal warning was unnecessary - despite me admitting to doing 89 on a motorway and him suspecting I had been going well over 100. That's the sort of policing we need - policing based on judgement not just mindless rule following.

The law isn't the main problem, it's the cheapskate way it's being enforced.

[stu]

I totally agree with adsgreen, especially the bit about stupid people. I've spent the last three days motoring about in a 170hp A4 TDI, caught up in all the traffic that I usually am well away from. It's been an eye opener. I see accidents waiting to happen just about everywhere - and I'm just referring to the dual carriageways. It's like no one knows how to use lanes appropriately. Should I have to brake so someone can push their way on from a slip road? Cranking that up another 20mph would be ludicrous.

[PetrolDave]

especially the bit about stupid people.
I see accidents waiting to happen just about everywhere
It's like no one knows how to use lanes appropriately.
Should I have to brake so someone can push their way on from a slip road?

You've just given 4 examples that prove my point that's it's behaviour not speed that is the problem.

Risk analysis is (or should be) based on root cause analysis, and speed is not the root cause of the vast majority of accidents (the best estimate from TRL is that it's the root cause of no more than 5% of accidents), it's bad behaviour.

[stu]

You've just given 4 examples that prove my point that's it's behaviour not speed that is the problem.

Risk analysis is (or should be) based on root cause analysis, and speed is not the root cause of the vast majority of accidents (the best estimate from TRL is that it's the root cause of no more than 5% of accidents), it's bad behaviour.

I think we agree PetrolDave, though am happy to be corrected!

I think that the nation's driving behaviour is nigh on impossible to change. One by one, piece by piece, individual driver's behaviours could be improved with educational pull overs like mentioned earlier but realistically we will for the foreseeable future be a national of drivers that aren't anywhere near as good as we need to be. So, thinking beyond the analysis to the next step: the change, I think we're stuck. I don't think, everything being the same, that speed limit should go up if we as a collective can't handle it. Agree/disagree?

I'm liking this debate.

[victor2vt]

Is it not crazy that learner drivers are not allowed to learn to drive on a motorway, yet as soon as they pass, they can ?????????????

Who's bright idea was that, and, why has it not been introduced before now ???????????

[stu]

Is it not crazy that learner drivers are not allowed to learn to drive on a motorway, yet as soon as they pass, they can ?????????????

Who's bright idea was that, and, why has it not been introduced before now ???????????

In Northern Ireland, once I passed I wasn't allowed to exceed 45mph on any road for 12 months. Including on the motorway!

[PetrolDave]

I don't think, everything being the same, that speed limit should go up if we as a collective can't handle it. Agree/disagree?

I think that we shouldn't accept everything being the same, and that we should argue for change including protesting (& direct action if necessary - like the French).

We have P plates for newly qualified drivers, why should we not have (e.g.) an E plate for experienced drivers (who have passed an extra test as proof of their competence) and who are allowed certain privileges (such as a higher National speed limit - definitely NOT where a lower speed limit applies).

Let's escape from the "one size fits all" mentality that is handicapping the UK's competitiveness in just about every area.

[stu]

We have P plates for newly qualified drivers, why should we not have (e.g.) an E plate for experienced drivers (who have passed an extra test as proof of their competence) and who are allowed certain privileges (such as a higher National speed limit - definitely NOT where a lower speed limit applies).

Let's escape from the "one size fits all" mentality that is handicapping the UK's competitiveness in just about every area.

Great idea.

[neckarsulm]

..regarding Petroldave's comments about how does a Gatso know an RV can only do 60 in a 70, on the M42 in the active traffic management zone I am pretty sure the cameras have got vehicle weight sensors beneath them in the carriageway.

[PetrolDave]

I am pretty sure the cameras have got vehicle weight sensors beneath them in the carriageway.

How do they work? Weighing a vehicle doing 70mph doesn't seem possible to me...