Initial thoughts on the M3 (vs RS4)

[edge]

Love the look of the M3, have to admit that it would be a good option when I move on..... but that a long way down the road

[EAndy]

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41261

^^ Traiter

I found my E46 M3 used to handle better than my RS4 but then I chucked £3k into the suspension so I'd have expected that. Never driven an E90 long enough to get used to it to really throw it around interesting you find it goes around bends in standard set up much quicker than the RS4.

[adsgreen]

until it rains

[Steve_C]

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41261

^^ Traiter

I found my E46 M3 used to handle better than my RS4 but then I chucked £3k into the suspension so I'd have expected that. Never driven an E90 long enough to get used to it to really throw it around interesting you find it goes around bends in standard set up much quicker than the RS4.

Ha ha! Yes, I know but I am loving the M3. Have to admit that part of it is due to it being new with a manufacturer's warranty so I'm thrashing it to within an inch of its life and seeing if I can break it!!

Been out on some damp roads today and still got awesome grip - DSC came on a couple of times but no major dramas and I was trying to get the back end to break lose just to see where the limit is. I think my speed in serious rain will be limited by the psychology of driving a RWD rather than the car itself.

Will post up some more detailed thoughts after another week or so of thrashing!

PS - if anyone is in the Nottingham area with an RS4 and fancies an 'on the road comparison', give me a shout - don't think they'll be much in it either way - my guess would be 5% quicker for the M3 in the dry, 10% quicker for the RS4 in the wet.

[edge]

Iv only own FWD cars and then my last two were an Evo and my RS4, love the M3 but the FEAR of RWD....

This your first RWD motor?

[Steve_C]

This your first RWD motor?

When I was a whipper snapper I had an MG Midget, Escort Mk2 and a Mazda MX-5. And when I started racing my first two cars were RWD Alfas. Having said that I've not had a RWD car for a few years now; my last 3 cars were all 4WD.

[edge]

you have many an hour spent with RWD under the belt and still worried about getting her arse out.... ha ha RWD would be the death of me!

[adsgreen]

RWD is fine - the real problem is coming from FWD to RWD and expecting it to behave the same esp when you panic.
To be honest it's not that different really - like if you apply power when turning then you'll understeer. The only difference is with high powered RWD is when the power exceeds the grip then you'll lurch into oversteer.
The big RWD newbie risk is lift off oversteer - doesn't matter how little or much power you have if you lift off when the rears are stretched then you'll be in a world of pain unless you are very lucky. Double that pain if you are mid/rear engined - at least front engine you've got alot more chance to catch it.

TBH though, FWD is probably the most fun for the road - with modern cars and esp performance cars if you get into the area where you're really taxing the rear stability then you'll most likely be a risk on most roads (esp the quality or lack of in the uk). At least with FWD you can push it really hard and have a big safety net whilst having fun. Have to say, swimbo's mini cooper S is an absolute laugh to drive down narrow country roads. No doubt the RS4 would be quicker but quicker doesn't always mean more fun.
The problem with AWD/4WD is that it really blurs the line between "in" and "out" of countrol. The RS4 is almost too capable and lures you into corner entry speeds way higher than you'd look at in other cars purely down to the confidence you get from the sheer tenacity of the cars desire to grip the road. The issue is that you get less warning when you do go too quick so have to be on your toes.

On track though with plenty of nice safe run off RWD everytime (unless it's wet). That first time you learn how to control rotation using the throttle with the steering wheel dead centre is a buzz of the highest order. Hard to explain but it's like balancing on a high wire where you know you got everything "just right".

[Steve_C]

+1 to that adsgreen.

Most of my RWD experience is in older cars with no electronics to save you so I am on a learning curve with the M3 on that score (I will not be switching the DSC off in the wet!). I remember one embarrassing time in my MX5 when trying to impress my girlfriend - I booted it off a wet roundabout to induce a 'controlled slide' and ended up doing a 180 and facing the wrong way down the round - had to do a quick 3 point turn before the traffic descended on us! Mind you, said girlfriend is now my wife so couldn't have put her off that much!

Although the rear end of the M3 has got a bit lively twice so far (deliberately induced I have to say), I'm only talking about a rotation of about 5 degrees and I think the electronics tidied it up before I had a chance to. I've got a track day next week so hope to explore the limits in a relatively safe environment.

I also found the RS4 almost too capable and confidence inspiring. The result being that I felt a bit detached from the experience albeit it is the safest and quickest way of getting from A to B. Driving the M3 you have to be more alert more of the time (good if you're on a weekend blast, not so good on an early morning commute) but I find having to put in that extra effort worth it.

[DazN]

I have been reading this conversation with interest after owning BMW's for the last several years so have driven in all conditions with RWD and lots of BHP (507bhp M5, 343bhp M3).

In December 2009 I purchased an M5, I'd wanted one for a while and even though we were set for snow I couldn't turn it down. It sat on the drive for a few weeks as anything other than dry roads it struggled to get the power into the tyres without the rear end squirming all over the place. I had new tyres fitted but still the same, wet roads were bad, anything worse was impossible. We had a bit of hail stone and I almost lost it a couple of times.

I've now owned the Quattro RS4 (couldn't resist putting the Q word in there!) since December last year and it is without a shadow of a doubt a much more useable car as it drives the same in ALL conditions. I take corners at speed in the rain that the BMW would have cried at.

The M3 is a nice motor without a doubt, they look awesome and the standard level of gadgets is far superior to Audi but people keep going on about the snow and it's not just that, it's anything other than dry roads you're going to feel a difference, especially when those wet roads are cold and a little bit slippy.

BMW's are now branding all their cars with S and X drive, the rumour is that you'll be able to buy a mix of anything... so perhaps a 4WD (X Drive) M1/3/5/6 is in the pipeline? Then again just buy an RS4/6 )

Good luck with the M3 though Steve and keep the updates coming, especially as the weather turns, I'm sure you'll be back with Audi soon.

Daz

[Steve_C]

Will do Daz - if I end up in a hedge in Jan/Feb time I'll be sure to post on here!
I've only driven the M3 on damp roads so far and no issues there so will have to see how things stand up in wetter conditions. Of course, I've got 7mm tyre tread atm which is going to help.

Incidentally, did you ever crash the BMW in the wet or did you just drive it with more care/slower?

[DazN]

I found the M5 to be quite a scary car to drive in anything other than the dry so I used to take it easy 'ish. I found if I planted my foot the car would take over, flash it's traction control light at me and refuse to do what it was told!! Switching it off was not an option! I didn't crash it though - thankfully.

Saying that I did actually spin my RS4 in the snow, over confidence perhaps

Good luck with it, once you're used to it I'm sure you'll have a great time.

[adsgreen]

Bah - you should try a lightweight banzai powered mid engined RWD on semi slicks with no TC.
Thats when you *know* you're alive
Not many times you arrive to where you're going to and the first words are "oh thank god <slump>"

[Steve_C]

Some further thoughts while I remember.

The paintwork on the M3 is shocking - as in orange peely. My detailing man tells me that all BMWs have been this way for 10yrs now. No excuse.
In the dry the DSC kicks in too easily - for example, it just is not possible to go quickly around a small-ish roundabout. However, turning DSC off or partly off seems to solve the problem (in the dry at least!).
I love the fact that the M button (equivalent to the RS4's S button can be programmed exactly how you want it in terms of throttle response, DSC on/off, suspension stiffness, gear changes (assume DCT only) and steering weight.
I now love the DCT box so much that I seriously doubt I'll have a manual car again!!

As an aside, had a 'on the road comparison' with my mates Evo 9 GT. He's got 430bhp and 1300kgs. So as you'd expect he pulled away from me.....but only very slightly - maybe 3 car lengths by the time we'd gone from 30 to 130. This surprised me given the relative power to weight ratios.

[edge]

I now love the DCT box so much that I seriously doubt I'll have a manual car again!!

Really? cant say iv driven with the DCT, but was not a fan of the SMG set up at all!