B7 RS4 Rolling Road Day 18th April 2009 (Free of Charge)

[Dom81]

Pippyrips – 416.3
rAudiguy – 413.2
bn8959 – 386.2 STOCK, 18k miles
Outlaw – 376.8
dubbers – 374.9 STOCK, 22K miles, 3K (12 months) since last oil change
Dom81 – 371.7 STOCK, 11K miles, 600 miles since last oil change, SW0090
SR-71 – 369.9
Scoobysnack – 367.6
Jezzer – 367.4 STOCK 11k miles, 2k miles since last oil change
Red Rocket – 363.5
Adam – 363.5 APS remap, 13k miles
P_G – 359.7 STOCK 46000mls 3000 miles until AVS 3 oil change
Marcus_RS4 – 355.8
Pad125 – 355.3 STOCK 28000mls serviced in Dec08
Rs4_avant – 347.8
Gazzer68 – 343 STOCK 33800mls, service done 2 weeks ago
timRS4 – 338.2
Klauster – 325
Scaghead – 311.8
MacRS4 – 301.9
Oli – 297.3 (Maff fault code) STOCK 33600mls SVC due next week

[Outtlaw]

Pippyrips – 416.3
rAudiguy – 413.2
bn8959 – 386.2 STOCK, 18k miles
Outlaw – 376.8
dubbers – 374.9 STOCK, 22K miles, 3K (12 months) since last oil change
Dom81 – 371.7 STOCK, 11K miles, 600 miles since last oil change, SW0090
SR-71 – 369.9
Scoobysnack – 367.6
Jezzer – 367.4 STOCK 11k miles, 2k miles since last oil change
Red Rocket – 363.5
Adam – 363.5 APS remap, 13k miles
P_G – 359.7 STOCK 46000mls 3000 miles until AVS 3 oil change
Marcus_RS4 – 355.8
Pad125 – 355.3 STOCK 28000mls serviced in Dec08
Rs4_avant – 347.8
Gazzer68 – 343 STOCK 33800mls, service done 2 weeks ago
timRS4 – 338.2
Klauster – 325
Scaghead – 311.8
MacRS4 – 301.9
Oli – 297.3 (Maff fault code) STOCK 33600mls SVC due next week

Pippyrips – 416.3
rAudiguy – 413.2
bn8959 – 386.2 STOCK, 18k miles
Outlaw – 376.8 STOCK,28k miles, 1ltr of oil put in on the day
dubbers – 374.9 STOCK, 22K miles, 3K (12 months) since last oil change
Dom81 – 371.7 STOCK, 11K miles, 600 miles since last oil change, SW0090
SR-71 – 369.9
Scoobysnack – 367.6
Jezzer – 367.4 STOCK 11k miles, 2k miles since last oil change
Red Rocket – 363.5
Adam – 363.5 APS remap, 13k miles
P_G – 359.7 STOCK 46000mls 3000 miles until AVS 3 oil change
Marcus_RS4 – 355.8
Pad125 – 355.3 STOCK 28000mls serviced in Dec08
Rs4_avant – 347.8
Gazzer68 – 343 STOCK 33800mls, service done 2 weeks ago
timRS4 – 338.2
Klauster – 325
Scaghead – 311.8
MacRS4 – 301.9
Oli – 297.3 (Maff fault code) STOCK 33600mls SVC due next week

[SR71]

Just for the record I have no intention (at the moment - and certainly not on the basis of dyno numbers!) of getting rid of my car.

But in the interests of good debate and all....



Its worth remembering that on the basis of numbers better than some owners recorded yesterday, customers have had Audi take their cars back. Quite rightly so IMHO.

The quoted power stats start on Pg 2 of the official RS4 publicity material. They were obviously proud of them.

Whilst strictly, yesterday, we did not control many of the dependent variables at all (i.e., no monitoring of tyre pressures -AFAIK 50psi should have been used(?), no monitoring of geometries, no monitoring of tyre sizes, no control of gearbox/oil temps etc etc) one may argue that Audi know full well that if the power is so dependent on such variables, owners ought to be aware of the case, and that this not being the case, if the car doesn't make the quoted power they haven't got a leg to stand on objecting on these grounds.

But I don't think, in those cases, there should be a huge variance on these particular variables.

Yet, yesterday the difference between the best and worst stock car (supposedly without issues) is ~70hp.

Thats approaching 20% variance.

Even if you knew the dyno correction factors, what are you going to say when the spread is this large?

Now is the dyno the cause or are the Audi's the cause? Either way, I think it would be interesting to get Dyno Dynamics and/or Audi's view on the matter.

IMHO, its hardly likely the dyno is out, although again, bearing in mind the discrepancy between similar dynos just 20 miles apart, I'm curious to know if Dyno Dynamics can only validate their dynos to within 5% which is what the difference is in my case.

It is hard to tell at the moment, without seeing the wheel figures, which would presumably tell us whether the correction factors used are equivalent. I don't know enough about the dynos to know whether these are operator dependent on fixed with the mode?

So you arrive back at the conclusion that its something car-dependent, especially when you then looked at the figures of other marques tested which come up on the numbers, and the experience of R8 owners...

What is also interesting is that we now know a decat is worth ~30+hp.

Those proponents of the argument which goes along the lines of "yeah but if you lifted the engine out of the car and hooked it up to an engine dyno it'd make the numbers" are thus suggesting that just by virtue of this process (based on typical stock car numbers), you'd gain the same power as if you would by de-catting the car!

As AntoRS4 once said

and please don't say the the problem is the 4wd...it can not absorb 40 or more hp than a 2wd , 40hp produce lot of heat, you will see fire
coming from the bottom of your car after 5km....

(PS: Jim - the DVLA might be getting one over us "stock" car owners, but bloody hell, you're getting one over on them with your car mate! )

As for the deposition issue, the science is incontrovertible. The graphs/measurements show an improvement in airflow merely by virtue of cleaning the intake and a further improvement with porting. I had them on me yesterday for viewing if anybody had wanted them... Rob's car was within a few hp (<10hp wasn't it?) of the quoted figures once it was cleaned up by MRC having tested at 390hp on SRR.

No one is suggesting this is the unique reason for the performance deficit the cars seem to indicate (we're talking about g/sec difference here), but nevertheless, if you're looking for a bit extra, its an obvious recourse.

However, as for the effect the deposition is having on your engine and its longevity, I personally think that this is also demonstrated. But you will only know the answer to that question if you analyse your oil and/or internals and see what is happening to it over a period of time.

The research on this issue is clear to me personally having done the above.

The difference between pippyrips and rAudiguys cars surely demonstrates that the the major restriction to good flow is the cats. In comparison, cleaning out the manifold is not going to have a huge effect.

I need to qualify this statement in retrospect though, because I realise that Jim & Rob have different exhaust geometries.

Conclsuions drawn? I have no idea.

Where to from here?

We need a VMAX event for B7's to back up the work...



Pippyrips – 416.3
rAudiguy – 413.2
bn8959 – 386.2 STOCK, 18k miles
Outlaw – 376.8 STOCK, 28k miles, 1ltr of oil put in on the day
dubbers – 374.9 STOCK, 22K miles, 3K (12 months) since last oil change
Dom81 – 371.7 STOCK, 11K miles, 600 miles since last oil change, SW0090
SR-71 – 369.9 STOCK, 21K miles, 500 miles on oil & sparks
Scoobysnack – 367.6
Jezzer – 367.4 STOCK 11k miles, 2k miles since last oil change
Red Rocket – 363.5
Adam – 363.5 APS remap, 13k miles
P_G – 359.7 STOCK 46000mls 3000 miles until AVS 3 oil change
Marcus_RS4 – 355.8
Pad125 – 355.3 STOCK 28000mls serviced in Dec08
Rs4_avant – 347.8
Gazzer68 – 343 STOCK 33800mls, service done 2 weeks ago
timRS4 – 338.2
Klauster – 325
Scaghead – 311.8
MacRS4 – 301.9
Oli – 297.3 (Maff fault code) STOCK 33600mls SVC due next week

[RED_ROCKET]

AMD Map, Milltek cat back. 12.6k miles

[ArthurPE]

so someone made 310 crank HP? assuming a 20% loss that's 250 at the wheels...doubt it...
the ONLY reliable method is to drag the car, multiple times, and average the trap speeds...
then use one of the better mathematical models to estimate HP...
a 300 HP car weighing 4100 lbs loaded can't trap >105....

as far as a car with 414 HP losing 40 HP more than a rwd car and bursting into flames? riduculous...
the components that absorb the heat (fluids, metal, etc.) reject it into the airstream that cruising at 150 MPH+ would generate...

normal driving at 70 MPH may take 100 HP and at the lower RPM the HP loss may be 5 HP more than a rwd car...no flames...

without seeing curves, dyno set-up software parameters, correction factors, etc., this is almost meaningless...

has anyone who dyno'ed this go around ever 1/4 mile'ed their car?
what were the number? trap/ET...

has anybody who dyno'ed their car this time who made 320 HP ran on the highway >140 mph?
because at this weight, with 20% losses and the car's Cd x A numbers you would need >320 HP to do 120

here's a very good tool: http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/~sharma/Potpourri/perf_est.html
I've already set-up a RS4 (scroll list) using estimated torque numbers based on 310 HP (adjust for your dyno curve)
Cd x A is from sportauto...

imho all that dynos are good for is tuning while in operation on the dyno, ie, when running making adjustments and see the change in output...
as I previously posted, RotoTest's numbers are ~ 330-350 rwhp for a 17-20% loss...
and all magazine tests show the cars trapping >105, close to 110, as does the slips posted on dragtime websites...

[Contigo]

I think Jim has some interesting Vmax results from today doesn't he?

[rAudiguy]

Yes pulled 190 today on a private road of course! And there was more to be had, I reckon she would do 200+

J has some very interesting points as does Arther, any ideas on how much it would cost to hire an old air strip for the day???

[Andyuk911]

VMAX ... the only thing we can do is ask Craig(who runs Vmax) for a B7 day ... with some other cars to make up the numbers .. cost £150-£250 ...

Paul(W8 ...) ... can you comment on the cost as you have been on a VMAX day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lwu9RrUowg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpRoSrYbGQ0

[klauster]

you could count me in for this should it be arranged

[Scoobysnack]

My thanks to all those who made it happen..........


Pippyrips – 416.3
rAudiguy – 413.2
bn8959 – 386.2 STOCK, 18k miles
Outlaw – 376.8 STOCK, 28k miles, 1ltr of oil put in on the day
dubbers – 374.9 STOCK, 22K miles, 3K (12 months) since last oil change
Dom81 – 371.7 STOCK, 11K miles, 600 miles since last oil change, SW0090
SR-71 – 369.9 STOCK, 21K miles, 500 miles on oil & sparks
Scoobysnack – 367.6 STOCK, 27K miles, 6 months since service
Jezzer – 367.4 STOCK 11k miles, 2k miles since last oil change
Red Rocket – 363.5
Adam – 363.5 APS remap, 13k miles
P_G – 359.7 STOCK 46000mls 3000 miles until AVS 3 oil change
Marcus_RS4 – 355.8
Pad125 – 355.3 STOCK 28000mls serviced in Dec08
Rs4_avant – 347.8
Gazzer68 – 343 STOCK 33800mls, service done 2 weeks ago
timRS4 – 338.2
Klauster – 325
Scaghead – 311.8
MacRS4 – 301.9
Oli – 297.3 (Maff fault code) STOCK 33600mls SVC due next week

[Contigo]

I'm up for it defo!!! I'll run detuned though so as not to embarras too much

[Andyuk911]

Rob,

let me know if I should restrict this vid ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBoAh-95gBA

Andy

[rAudiguy]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Gazzer68]

Rob,

let me know if I should restrict this vid ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBoAh-95gBA

Andy

What was that?, because it's been removed !

[Gazzer68]

has anybody who dyno'ed their car this time who made 320 HP ran on the highway >140 mph?
because at this weight, with 20% losses and the car's Cd x A numbers you would need >320 HP to do 120

Mine dyno'd at 343 at the crank, but i've run 160 (on the speedo)
easy before yesterday !