The ultimite mapping thread

[Voyager]

i dont want to go into my credentials to make a point but take it that i know my way around engines and tuning.

i have trawled the RS threads for as much info i can get on what maps are suitable and worthwhile, and it seems that there is a huge amount of disagreement on who offers the best map.
but the most glaring, and strangely unbelivable fact is that no one seems to have the bravery to post a before and after dyno curve of the map they have installed. surely this along with a A/F graph would help us all to decide what works and what doesn't work.
mapping a car is NOT a black art, it follows std procedures and safety parameters and any tuner who claims to have a proven map but fails to back the claim with evidence as to the improvement if full of <beep> IMO.
the seat of the pants dyno will not give you an idea of how lean your car is running so quotes of "well it feels like it has better midrange" has no bearing on whether your map is good or not.
so come on tuners and map providers show us your graphs (remember corrected figures please and an A/F plot too) maybe then we can blow the fog away and see for real who has the skills and who is just blowing hot air.
until then my money will stay in my wallet

[W8PMC]

i dont want to go into my credentials to make a point but take it that i know my way around engines and tuning.

i have trawled the RS threads for as much info i can get on what maps are suitable and worthwhile, and it seems that there is a huge amount of disagreement on who offers the best map.
but the most glaring, and strangely unbelivable fact is that no one seems to have the bravery to post a before and after dyno curve of the map they have installed. surely this along with a A/F graph would help us all to decide what works and what doesn't work.
mapping a car is NOT a black art, it follows std procedures and safety parameters and any tuner who claims to have a proven map but fails to back the claim with evidence as to the improvement if full of <beep> IMO.
the seat of the pants dyno will not give you an idea of how lean your car is running so quotes of "well it feels like it has better midrange" has no bearing on whether your map is good or not.
so come on tuners and map providers show us your graphs (remember corrected figures please and an A/F plot too) maybe then we can blow the fog away and see for real who has the skills and who is just blowing hot air.
until then my money will stay in my wallet

Oops, is that a can of worms i hear being opened.

I'd guess most of the tuners have no desire to meet your demands & will be fine with your money staying in your wallet as the better tuners try to shy away from pissing contests.

Whilst you're correct that tuning/mapping are not black arts, you'll find no 2 maps giving the exact same outputs/gains & no 2 RR's that give the same results, even the same RR giving the same result more than once.

That's not saying the info is not out there, but most will agree that anywhere between 10 & 30BHP is possible/probable & most have seen plots etc. to support this.

You pays your money.

[P_G]

Voyager, it's a nice idea that you have but having tried this on another forum with some tuners you never get anbywhere with them. Some won't have dyno results or will show you before and after plots on other VAG cars to show what they 'could' do (you know the normal conversation 'Have you done many RS4 remaps?' 'Oh yeah, loads' How 'many?' ' One'), others don't bother as they believe they don't have to prove a point and still get customers.

I sincerely hope that some are business wise enough to notice a number of RS4 owners use this forum and those who haven't tuned / remapped their cars as yet would probably come to them for business is suitable gains can be proven, however don't be surprised if you don't get any.

[SR71]

It always amazes me that if Audi spend a few hundred million optimising the RS4 fluid dynamics using CFD models which may or may not include the applicable chemistry and include God knows how many points in the test matrix, how is it conceivable that a tuner with a RR and VAGCOM thinks he can do a better job for £1K....

Art versus science?

Sorry but I'm a purist and most tuners except the very biggest names are nothing but artists IMHO.

I like Manthey for their honesty in admitting the 997 GT3 3.6 is at its limit...there isn't anything else you can get from it without seriously compromising its reliability. Their mods focus on other things besides the power source.

That said if you stretched the RS4 4 .2 to the same limit you'd be looking at ~480hp.

Maybe there is room for manoeuvre....

[Voyager]

i agree that tuners are unlikely to step up to the plate, the "prima donna" attitude i suppose. although having tuned many turbo cars and owning a 580hp 1.3L hayabusa i know what is and what isn't possible.
now we aint talking pissing contest here between tuners but i am sure if one stepped up with a graph and A/F plot they would get my money and i am sure a whole bunch more from other owners who are sitting on the fence along with myself.

how is it conceivable that a tuner with a RR and VAGCOM thinks he can do a better job for £1K....

well the answers to this one are many, EU emmission regulations/ drive by noise limits and longevity all conspire to the manufacture having to soften the power delivery of many cars thereby leaving room for the independant tuner to find gains, some cars however are pretty much at the peak of output figures but work can be done with timing etc to change the way that power is delivered. also what happens when a more free flowing inlet/exhaust is fitted ?

picking a tuner by reputation is a good start but not a perfect one, someone may recommend a tuner as they had a good experience and some may slate the very same tuner because they had a bad experience (and to be honest i see a lot of this approach here) if tuners were brave enough to provide their Winpep graphs then we could make a reasoned and pretty accurate statement as to whether the map they provide will produce worthwhile and safe gains.
any tuner worth their salt could give you top end gains of 50hp on an rs4 how long it would hold together is another question.
like no 2 cars, no 2 maps are the same some customers may want peak HP some may want midrange torque so map comparisons are subjective to the car and the owners requests, but they do take the smoke and mirrors away from the whole proccess and this is why i think the turners are reluctant,
i dont think that its fair to pay £1000 for the emperors new clothes.

[RS4Molar]

i agree that tuners are unlikely to step up to the plate, the "prima donna" attitude i suppose. although having tuned many turbo cars and owning a 580hp 1.3L hayabusa i know what is and what isn't possible.
now we aint talking pissing contest here between tuners but i am sure if one stepped up with a graph and A/F plot they would get my money and i am sure a whole bunch more from other owners who are sitting on the fence along with myself.

how is it conceivable that a tuner with a RR and VAGCOM thinks he can do a better job for £1K....

well the answers to this one are many, EU emmission regulations/ drive by noise limits and longevity all conspire to the manufacture having to soften the power delivery of many cars thereby leaving room for the independant tuner to find gains, some cars however are pretty much at the peak of output figures but work can be done with timing etc to change the way that power is delivered. also what happens when a more free flowing inlet/exhaust is fitted ?

picking a tuner by reputation is a good start but not a perfect one, someone may recommend a tuner as they had a good experience and some may slate the very same tuner because they had a bad experience (and to be honest i see a lot of this approach here) if tuners were brave enough to provide their Winpep graphs then we could make a reasoned and pretty accurate statement as to whether the map they provide will produce worthwhile and safe gains.
any tuner worth their salt could give you top end gains of 50hp on an rs4 how long it would hold together is another question.
like no 2 cars, no 2 maps are the same some customers may want peak HP some may want midrange torque so map comparisons are subjective to the car and the owners requests, but they do take the smoke and mirrors away from the whole proccess and this is why i think the turners are reluctant,
i dont think that its fair to pay £1000 for the emperors new clothes.

revo in oz just released their specs. 320kw and 460 nm torque, MAF 150-160 g/s timing 4-8 degrees i presume >>????
also offer switch feature to store upto 3 maps.
Cheers

[tartan_rob]

MAF 150-160 g/s

I am sure I was getting 180/90 odd the other day in 3rd gear at max revs..
Std car

[s4woody]

but the most glaring, and strangely unbelivable fact is that no one seems to have the bravery to post a before and after dyno curve

thats cos very few map a car on this site using a dyno..its normally the car owners that take the car to a dyno after the map to show the increase in power..

[t_urbo]

MAF 150-160 g/s

I am sure I was getting 180/90 odd the other day in 3rd gear at max revs..
Std car

Std car will see you around 150.

I have only ran a few MAF logs but since my remap i get around 171 in 3rd at around 8000 rpm which would be about right since the cams on my car have been altered.

[Voyager]

thats cos very few map a car on this site using a dyno..its normally the car owners that take the car to a dyno after the map to show the increase in power..

cant really see how a new map can be done without the aid of either a chassis or engine dyno, i would advise anyone to stay away from any map that has been produced without the aid of the above. reason being its really the only "safeish" enviroment in which to develop and monitor any new ecu fueling/timing map. only under load will true figures be seen.
i guess this is why there are very few good tuners and a whole bunch of cowboys.
if your cars worth a £1k or so then fair enough, but you seriously expect anyone to hand over £50k worth of car to a halfwit with a laptop and no dyno to test and develop on ????

[s4woody]

no my M5 i have the ability to show how much air my mafs are taking in..and read them through the dash display..its a good indication as to there condition..its a thing that dealers do but if you know how its a great addition to your diagnostic knowhow..
@ voyager..finally somebody to break the mould..welcome to the forum...

[ChrisRS4]

cant really see how a new map can be done without the aid of either a chassis or engine dyno, i would advise anyone to stay away from any map that has been produced without the aid of the above. reason being its really the only "safeish" enviroment in which to develop and monitor any new ecu fueling/timing map. only under load will true figures be seen.
i guess this is why there are very few good tuners and a whole bunch of cowboys.
if your cars worth a £1k or so then fair enough, but you seriously expect anyone to hand over £50k worth of car to a halfwit with a laptop and no dyno to test and develop on ????

I wouldn't get too hung up on dyno's. Personally speaking, most of the maps I've had on previous cars have been done on the open road, even if the tuner owns a dyno. Dyno's should only be used for before and after comparisons, they don't replicate real world environmental conditions or airflow.

Also, I had the other car down at Star Performance just before Christmas. Jim was telling me that they've only seen about 6bhp gains in mapping the RS4 so they don't bother offering it. They only remove the speed limiter.

[Andiroo]

Hi Voyager, been reading this post with interest, and a lot of what you say makes sense to me... .... however, firstly you must agree that to post a before and after dyno curve, and as you've indicated there are not many, B7 owners would like to be happy with the before dyno curve...... and most who have dynoed are not by all accounts on here.

You say mapping a car is not a black art, but agreeing what the drivetrain loss is, flywheel to wheels, on a B7 RS4, before you even start mapping, could well be an artform in itself........

Cheers,

Andiroo

[t_urbo]

I have posted these before but here's my 5th gear run before and after the remap.

Notice the runs were done back to back, 5256 (before) and 5257 (after) so they show a direct comparison.

The A/F ratio was measured real time and was perfect. I have since ran A/F through Vag-Com myself and it is spot on.

[55JWB]

I have plots from my car, both on the same road, both by the same operator but on different days... one showing 343bhp one showing 421bhp... many of the plots I have seen are set up in slightly different ways, as can be seen from the small numbers around the bottom of the plots, differerent gears, different "shoot out modes" until you got a number of differently mapped cars, all running the same fuel, for the last three fill ups, and then all on the same day at the same location with the same ambient and intake temps to see what they produce, it will be difficult to compare... Not very easy... but possible....