RS4 on Top Gear (Dec 23rd)

[Housemaster]

As I have said above who really cares what Top Gear thinks, I find it amazing that it gets so deeply debated when it’s nothing more than light hearted entertainment lapped up by the ill informed as 'factual'. JC and the crew would never let 'facts' or 'objectiveness' get in the way of creating sound bites or 'the show', and this is what drives them. Why run a road test in the UK when they have the option of going to the Ascari resort for a few days, to be wine and dined while they enjoy some nice cars, and why wait for the M3 4 door when they have a slot to fill?

'Arsey4' I very much agree with your statement "You have to be careful when comparing to more exotic machinery ala housemasters posts. One mans run around is another’s pride and joy as is the rs4 for me." as I think it sums up one of my key frustrations in the brand loyalty demonstrated by a few people on ALL brand focused web forums. Experience, in most cases hopefully, should lead to a more objective outlook on things. Such experience hopefully allows me to be objective about the RS4, as it does about all my other cars. I don't think the RS4 is the best car out there because I don't believe a car can be all things to all men/women. I find people who hold up the stereotypes personified in Top Gear for example, if they take them serious as some seem to, have issues and need to get out more. I was the same person when driving my M3 as I am when driving my RS4 after all.

As a general point (an not directed at anyone) if you think the RS4 is the best car you have ever owned then I am in no position to argue as it’s your personal opinion and can’t be wrong, as for you it must be the case or else why state it. If you think the RS4 is better than the E92 M3, but have never driven an E92 M3 and base that decision on nothing more than a spec sheet, others (often very biased) reviews or perceived advantages I suggest that is not an informed decision. If this view is then backed up by stereotypes based on the perceived ‘typical’ owners I feel it devalues such opinions even more so.

I am happy with my RS4 as it does what it says on the tin and cost me about £13K less than a similarly specified (thought admittedly new) E92 M3, which for what I needed today was an important factor, and I am comfy with my decision. Would I choose an RS4 over an E92 M3 if price were not an issue? Probably not, but then I like RWD cars, always have done, always will do, for all its traction disadvantages. Doesn’t make the M3 better though, or the RS4 for that matter…

[alex_123_fra]

The M400 was the greatest driver's car I ever drove and in my opinion much better balanced, better steering, better performing than the GT3RS, CSL and even 360 Challenge stradale I test drove. Miles ahead than my previous M3. True it did not have as classic an engine as the others, but it still wiped the floor with much more expensive machinery and having a "driver's" car mattered to me at the time.

I don't fully agree with this, and here is why.

I nearly bought an M400, but I went for a GT3 instead after driving them both (and others such as the Sagaris) at length. The M400 was a very impressive car, but I felt it was very much a "parts bin special" and at the time it did not feel it was £60K well spent, which the current value of M400's seems to indicate. It was very quick with amazing poise and balance with great traction like the GT3, but the engine was less than inspiring and no where near as well put together and practical. I would also say the steering was not quite as communcative as the GT3's, if very very close. The GT3 is all in the setup, and if you get in a bad one, or one with Porsche settings it can feel a little understeer prone and off putting, but get it done right and you have yourself an incredible feeling helm.

I did 20K in my GT3 in 14 months with not the slightest issue, I would not expect to be able to do the same with an M400, or wheel it into a local OPC for a spot of work should I have had a problem, or come to think of it travel down to Monaco for 1 week with my wife full of her bags!

Great car no question, I may have one next year as I think it would make a great weekend car, but I used the GT3 as my day to day transport, and as I say I would not have been confident to do the same with an M400.

Going off on a tangent with respect to the thread topic but I'll add my opinion to this. I agree the M400 will probably not be as reliable as a GT3. I don't think it is as well made as a porsche but this is largely dependent on the condition of the car you buy. I was quite lucky with mine in that I had few problems whilst I gave it plenty of abuse. I would certainly never buy a new one (I think at £64k they were overpriced as are new GT3s and GT3 RSs). Good examples can be had for early £40s, which is significantly cheaper than a GT3 or RS and the change can be used to pay for tyres/brakes, general track running costs. If you wish to use it daily, I agree it isn't ideal and practicality is nearly zero. I would never want to use a GT3 daily either however even though there is more space for luggage!

Out of the box, there is absolutely no comparison, M400s are significantly faster than GT3s (and RSs) in my opinion. Although the GT3 is a well balanced car (I take my hat off to porsche for achieving this in such a tail-heavy car), I don't think it has the poise of a well set-up mid-engined, rear-wheel drive configuration (M400). The steering feel/response and turn-in speed in the M400 was just right in my opinion. There are plenty of modifications available from Rousch UK to improve the handling and power of M400s as well as improve reliability and as a track car it isn't actually that expensive to run if you have a good one and it is looked after by the right people. There are quite a few M400 owners running reliable 500+ bhp cars used on track regularly.

As far as the overall debate, I absolutely agree with ARSEY4. The point was hammered home to me just yesterday when I drove up to Leicester from london in what seemed like a monsoon, with incredibly hard rain and standing water on the M1. The RS4 didn't even bat an eyelid. The TC/ESP didn't even interfere and I didn't have to slow down significantly compared to my normal motorway speeds. Other cars, inluding a new 335i I went past looked very very nervous pootling along at 40-50 mph. There really is no other car I'd rather have been in except an RS4.

[ARSEY4]

I agree with Hosemaster re you should take top gear for what it is, 3 blokes having a laugh but I cant abide this changing of opinions. It may be me but shouldnt the journos get it right the first time. Evo as an example claimed the new m3 as not as good as the cs and gave a pretty equal write up against the rs4 yet in a recent edition they sudenly get it and suggest that the more they drive it the more they get. That is fine and I understand that cars can do this to the driver but they are the pros and should of sussed this out from day 1, its there job, they get paid good money to report objectivley on cars so that we the consumer can start to make an educated decision on what our next purchase may be. If they cant do that then surely they are in the wrong business. I would be very interested if teh makers of these cars are able to persuade influential jornos to rethink their decisions. Im not picking on the m3 as Im sure its a great car I just would like consistency from the motoring press.

[ARSEY4]

'Arsey4' I very much agree with your statement "You have to be careful when comparing to more exotic machinery ala housemasters posts. One mans run around is another’s pride and joy as is the rs4 for me." as I think it sums up one of my key frustrations in the brand loyalty demonstrated by a few people on ALL brand focused web forums. Experience, in most cases hopefully, should lead to a more objective outlook on things. Such experience hopefully allows me to be objective about the RS4, as it does about all my other cars. I don't think the RS4 is the best car out there because I don't believe a car can be all things to all men/women. I find people who hold up the stereotypes personified in Top Gear for example, if they take them serious as some seem to, have issues and need to get out more. I was the same person when driving my M3 as I am when driving my RS4 after all.

…

To a point yes but I would hope that I have a good outlook on what a decent handling car should feel like even though I have not had teh privilage of driving or owning a gt3 I have driven c2s and c4s owned a 987s and several other good cars in the lower price bracket. My point about the more expensive cars is really as basic as they cost more they should be better! Its not ultimatley true but i would say a majority of the time it is. I can only think of a Boxster/cayman being better handling than a 911 or maybe a noble that may buck that trend. Im sure thare are more but I am talking in general terms. The question should be what other car in the rs4s configeration around the 50k mark is overal a better car?? now it gets tricky....maybe an evo is better handling (I dont know never driven one) I honestly cant think of another 4 door saloon that I would of chosen. But maybe the 4 door m3 will be different.

[Housemaster]

I would argue that in terms of 'handling' the RS4 is bettered by a few cars within that price range, but in terms of damping and traction, thats a different story as I think the RS4 is pretty much smack on the numbers on that one, and at the end of the day these elements are pretty vital to ensuring you have a good road car, which no question the RS4 is. On a track, where handling balance and braking become more important, the RS4 starts to show some weakness, but to be fair on a road these should not really be apparent, unless you are really going too quickly for the public highway. The RS4 understeers too much to make it a great handler in my opinion, and though Audi have improved this no end it is still present, and will come to the fore when the car is really pushed. An E92 'handles' better in my view, I think an E46 does too, but there is no question that the RS4 has better damping than either, and the traction advantages of 4WD are a given, so for the road, which lets face it is what the car is designed for I think Audi's approach is more likely to win votes from the vast majority, but for fun and involvement, I think the RS4 is weaker than the E92 and E46, which both have chasis you can play with when the moment arises, though both will dull'ish steering too!

I urge those who have not done so to get their cars on the track, or more interesting perhaps, get them to a drifting event such as those at Oulton park. The weaker characteristics of your car will become very apparent, as will its strengths, and all at relatively low speed in a pretty safe environment. I was there the other week, and will be off there again soon. A CSL is really the car to have at these events, but put on the TC and open the taps and the RS4 just goes where you point it, which is most impressive!

These are worth a watch as they show the understeer of the car quite clearly as well as what a pari of eejits the two GP drivers are, and sorry if it has been posted before, and watch them one after another.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzt4tzm1wVg

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_aH0Jjs_n ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qPrvllDuB ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=87qwEMv45Zw&NR=1

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nyuUSxLVf ... re=related

The lesson for today?

Never let F1 drivers borrow your RS4!

O/T
Alex I don't agree that the M400 is MUCH quicker out of the box, not in my experience at least. Quicker no question, but small differences in a line and also around a track, with a good driver in the GT3 (ie not me! ). You might find this interesting, from the Fighting Torque event a few months back, Woody was there too! Times are over a 3/4 mile run, with standing start.

1 7 adrian w Noble M400 23.49
2 16 LuckyP Ultima GTR 23.8
3 4 Yorkshire Porsche 997 Turbo 23.94
4 91 Mr Harris Lamborghini 24.03
5 6 jasonsear Nissan GTR R34 24.36
6 9 Blkrokt Porsche 996 TT 24.39
7 26 Twerlie Noble M12 24.64
8 11 Songman3 Corvette C6-ZD6 24.64
9 2 phatgixer Mercedes SL65 AMG 24.78
10 20 kenny0811 Porsche 996 Turbo 24.82
11 33 paulsearle TVR TT Griffith 500 24.92
12 8 tinker27 Mazda RX7 24.97
13 46 cbj GD427 Euro 25.26
14 37 Mr Noble Noble M12 GTO3R 25.27
15 18 Brummiewedge TVR Cerbera LS2 25.32
16 5 DMC GT-500 Evolution 25.33
17 77 A TVR TVR 25.55
18 49 Housemaster Porsche 996 GT3 MKII 25.58
19 30 henna777 Porsche 997 GT3 25.58
20 69 daddysumo Noble M12 GTO 3R 25.7
21 10 acrman Viper SRT Coupe 25.72
22 50 nelly1 TVR Tuscan 25.79
23 31 Focused TVR Cerbera 25.8
24 47 grahamn TVR Cerbera 25.83
25 44 bigblockmark TVR Tuscan S 25.84
26 27 996TurboSean Porsche 996 Turbo 25.86
27 75 Andy RX7 Mazda RX7 25.86
28 21 Flea Fiat Coupé 20v Turbo 25.89
29 55 HarryW TVR Cerbera 25.95
30 32 keithyboy TVR Cerbera 25.98
31 1 Longbow TVR Cerbera 4.2 26.02
32 58 scooper TVR T350c Red Rose 26.03
33 42 KeithW TVR Cerbera 26.19
34 68 Wilder TVR Cerbera 26.21
35 65 pocty Porsche 996 GT3 RS 26.22
36 78 cupra3 Seat Ibiza 26.28
37 54 MadMark TVR Cerbera 4.5LW 26.33
38 51 kippax TVR Tuscan 26.37
39 38 FUBAR TVR Cerbera 26.42
40 3 N GTS Dodge Viper 26.49
41 79 Seasider TVR Griffith 26.55
42 41 satman TVR Cerbera 26.57
43 19 firesafetydave Mercedes E55 26.65
44 48 Funkster Noble GTO 3R 26.72
45 60 R8NAN TVR Cerbera 26.72
46 81 Byker28i TVR Cerbera 26.78
47 64 touching cloth TVR Cerbera 26.81
48 67 Cerberowner TVR Cerbera 26.86
49 66 Luckyone TVR Cerbera 26.95
50 85 VX220T VX220 Turbo 26.98
51 83 Katman TVR Cerbera 27.07
52 63 Timmy2TARs TVR Cerbera 4.5LW 27.09
53 76 toadusmodus TVR Cerbera 4.2 27.12
54 90 JaryJ VW Golf 27.13
55 35 TvrTone TVR Cerbera 27.15
56 39 big arm TVR Cerbera 27.2
57 43 AM04ARO Vauxhall Monaro 27.21
58 86 tbdgriffith500 TVR Griffith 500 27.23
59 40 XTR2Turbo Chevrolet Corvette C6 27.28
60 80 Olly TVR Cerbera 27.29
61 25 speed six TVR Cerbera 27.39
62 45 C8 CDS TVR Cerbera 27.49
63 61 Slarty Bartfast BMW M3CSL 27.53
64 82 maahny BMW M Coupe 27.63
65 62 Cyclone1 BMW 335D M-SPORT 27.68
66 53 Ben2 TVR Tuscan 2 S 27.74
67 72 warpig1 TVR Cerbera Sp Six 27.95
68 34 BLUETHUNDER TVR Cerbera 4.2 27.96
69 29 RussellM TVR Cerbera 27.99
70 74 buzz01 TVR Cerbera 28.06
71 59 jfk1958 TVR Cerbera 28.26
72 84 wfarrell BMW Z3 M Coupe 28.27
73 24 Morgan Monaro 6.0VXR 28.3
74 56 deerhunter Audi RS4 B5 28.37
75 70 RUF123 Mercedes E55 28.4
76 71 timberman Mercedes C32 AMG 28.45
77 23 v66len Holden Capa F-320 28.5
78 36 s4woody BMW M5 E39 28.53
79 88 NO.53 TVR Griffith 28.71
80 17 allblack Audi RS Avant 28.82
81 52 A GTS MG Xpower SV 29.05
82 87 Fatdad Hyundai 30.23
83 57 C3BER TVR Cerbera 4.5 RR 30.33
84 92 Andy Howarth Subaru 30.75
85 22 caretaker Audi RS4 30.93
86 73 Hollowpockets TVR T350 31.06
87 15 Michael Swift Subaru 31.09
88 89 toptotz Seat leon cupra r 31.31
89 28 Alex Harris BMW 330 31.94
90 14 Army Chap Peugeot 32.81

The Noble that won was a full on Rousch conversion with SERIOUS bhp and it went like stink! Twerlies car was running with a slightly tuned version of the M400 engine, with simliar weight reductions as an example and I think Mr Nobles car was also not standard. My car was 4th/5th quickest of the standard cars, which did actually suprise me. That Rousch Noble handed everyone, including Chris Harris in an LP640 its arse on that day!

[Contigo]

They liked the car, all three of them for that matter, Why are people getting so defensive?

they way I see it is that they are all awesome cars with all different qualities. The Audi IS the most refined, understated rep mobile of all three and I am happy to have owned one. I'd still like to own the other teo but have less of an urge as for me the Audi is the ultimate driving machine.

The lap times were an indication that there really was nothing in the times between the three cars, especially compared to a 1970's F1 car with the same power (slightly different ptw ratio)

Just be glad that you own one of the cars of the century and enjoy it!

[ARSEY4]

I would argue that in terms of 'handling' the RS4 is bettered by a few cars within that price range, but in terms of damping and traction, thats a different story as I think the RS4 is pretty much smack on the numbers on that one, and at the end of the day these elements are pretty vital to ensuring you have a good road car, which no question the RS4 is. On a track, where handling balance and braking become more important, the RS4 starts to show some weakness, but to be fair on a road these should not really be apparent, unless you are really going too quickly for the public highway. The RS4 understeers too much to make it a great handler in my opinion, and though Audi have improved this no end it is still present, and will come to the fore when the car is really pushed. An E92 'handles' better in my view, I think an E46 does too, but there is no question that the RS4 has better damping than either, and the traction advantages of 4WD are a given, so for the road, which lets face it is what the car is designed for I think Audi's approach is more likely to win votes from the vast majority, but for fun and involvement, I think the RS4 is weaker than the E92 and E46, which both have chasis you can play with when the moment arises, though both will dull'ish steering too!

I urge those who have not done so to get their cars on the track, or more interesting perhaps, get them to a drifting event such as those at Oulton park. The weaker characteristics of your car will become very apparent, as will its strengths, and all at relatively low speed in a pretty safe environment. I was there the other week, and will be off there again soon. A CSL is really the car to have at these events, but put on the TC and open the taps and the RS4 just goes where you point it, which is most impressive!

These are worth a watch as they show the understeer of the car quite clearly as well as what a pari of eejits the two GP drivers are, and sorry if it has been posted before, and watch them one after another.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzt4tzm1wVg

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_aH0Jjs_n ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qPrvllDuB ... re=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=87qwEMv45Zw&NR=1

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nyuUSxLVf ... re=related

The lesson for today?

Never let F1 drivers borrow your RS4!

O/T
Alex I don't agree that the M400 is MUCH quicker out of the box, not in my experience at least. Quicker no question, but small differences in a line and also around a track, with a good driver in the GT3 (ie not me! ). You might find this interesting, from the Fighting Torque event a few months back, Woody was there too! Times are over a 3/4 mile run, with standing start.

1 7 adrian w Noble M400 23.49
2 16 LuckyP Ultima GTR 23.8
3 4 Yorkshire Porsche 997 Turbo 23.94
4 91 Mr Harris Lamborghini 24.03
5 6 jasonsear Nissan GTR R34 24.36
6 9 Blkrokt Porsche 996 TT 24.39
7 26 Twerlie Noble M12 24.64
8 11 Songman3 Corvette C6-ZD6 24.64
9 2 phatgixer Mercedes SL65 AMG 24.78
10 20 kenny0811 Porsche 996 Turbo 24.82
11 33 paulsearle TVR TT Griffith 500 24.92
12 8 tinker27 Mazda RX7 24.97
13 46 cbj GD427 Euro 25.26
14 37 Mr Noble Noble M12 GTO3R 25.27
15 18 Brummiewedge TVR Cerbera LS2 25.32
16 5 DMC GT-500 Evolution 25.33
17 77 A TVR TVR 25.55
18 49 Housemaster Porsche 996 GT3 MKII 25.58
19 30 henna777 Porsche 997 GT3 25.58
20 69 daddysumo Noble M12 GTO 3R 25.7
21 10 acrman Viper SRT Coupe 25.72
22 50 nelly1 TVR Tuscan 25.79
23 31 Focused TVR Cerbera 25.8
24 47 grahamn TVR Cerbera 25.83
25 44 bigblockmark TVR Tuscan S 25.84
26 27 996TurboSean Porsche 996 Turbo 25.86
27 75 Andy RX7 Mazda RX7 25.86
28 21 Flea Fiat Coupé 20v Turbo 25.89
29 55 HarryW TVR Cerbera 25.95
30 32 keithyboy TVR Cerbera 25.98
31 1 Longbow TVR Cerbera 4.2 26.02
32 58 scooper TVR T350c Red Rose 26.03
33 42 KeithW TVR Cerbera 26.19
34 68 Wilder TVR Cerbera 26.21
35 65 pocty Porsche 996 GT3 RS 26.22
36 78 cupra3 Seat Ibiza 26.28
37 54 MadMark TVR Cerbera 4.5LW 26.33
38 51 kippax TVR Tuscan 26.37
39 38 FUBAR TVR Cerbera 26.42
40 3 N GTS Dodge Viper 26.49
41 79 Seasider TVR Griffith 26.55
42 41 satman TVR Cerbera 26.57
43 19 firesafetydave Mercedes E55 26.65
44 48 Funkster Noble GTO 3R 26.72
45 60 R8NAN TVR Cerbera 26.72
46 81 Byker28i TVR Cerbera 26.78
47 64 touching cloth TVR Cerbera 26.81
48 67 Cerberowner TVR Cerbera 26.86
49 66 Luckyone TVR Cerbera 26.95
50 85 VX220T VX220 Turbo 26.98
51 83 Katman TVR Cerbera 27.07
52 63 Timmy2TARs TVR Cerbera 4.5LW 27.09
53 76 toadusmodus TVR Cerbera 4.2 27.12
54 90 JaryJ VW Golf 27.13
55 35 TvrTone TVR Cerbera 27.15
56 39 big arm TVR Cerbera 27.2
57 43 AM04ARO Vauxhall Monaro 27.21
58 86 tbdgriffith500 TVR Griffith 500 27.23
59 40 XTR2Turbo Chevrolet Corvette C6 27.28
60 80 Olly TVR Cerbera 27.29
61 25 speed six TVR Cerbera 27.39
62 45 C8 CDS TVR Cerbera 27.49
63 61 Slarty Bartfast BMW M3CSL 27.53
64 82 maahny BMW M Coupe 27.63
65 62 Cyclone1 BMW 335D M-SPORT 27.68
66 53 Ben2 TVR Tuscan 2 S 27.74
67 72 warpig1 TVR Cerbera Sp Six 27.95
68 34 BLUETHUNDER TVR Cerbera 4.2 27.96
69 29 RussellM TVR Cerbera 27.99
70 74 buzz01 TVR Cerbera 28.06
71 59 jfk1958 TVR Cerbera 28.26
72 84 wfarrell BMW Z3 M Coupe 28.27
73 24 Morgan Monaro 6.0VXR 28.3
74 56 deerhunter Audi RS4 B5 28.37
75 70 RUF123 Mercedes E55 28.4
76 71 timberman Mercedes C32 AMG 28.45
77 23 v66len Holden Capa F-320 28.5
78 36 s4woody BMW M5 E39 28.53
79 88 NO.53 TVR Griffith 28.71
80 17 allblack Audi RS Avant 28.82
81 52 A GTS MG Xpower SV 29.05
82 87 Fatdad Hyundai 30.23
83 57 C3BER TVR Cerbera 4.5 RR 30.33
84 92 Andy Howarth Subaru 30.75
85 22 caretaker Audi RS4 30.93
86 73 Hollowpockets TVR T350 31.06
87 15 Michael Swift Subaru 31.09
88 89 toptotz Seat leon cupra r 31.31
89 28 Alex Harris BMW 330 31.94
90 14 Army Chap Peugeot 32.81

The Noble that won was a full on Rousch conversion with SERIOUS bhp and it went like stink! Twerlies car was running with a slightly tuned version of the M400 engine, with simliar weight reductions as an example and I think Mr Nobles car was also not standard. My car was 4th/5th quickest of the standard cars, which did actually suprise me. That Rousch Noble handed everyone, including Chris Harris in an LP640 its arse on that day!

Whilst Id agree with everything you say on the handling front I dont see the relevance when it comes to living with a car day to day. I cant imagine anyone buying an rs4 to use on a track for the reasons you give and the reasons vividley displayed in the tonio luzi vids. I find the understeering frustrating at times on the road let alone on a track. But I would again come back to my point about another car in the rs4 config and price range that is better?? I cant think of any at present that I would buy, but thats not to say there are none its just that I have not come across any.

[alex_123_fra]

The Noble that won was a full on Rousch conversion with SERIOUS bhp and it went like stink! Twerlies car was running with a slightly tuned version of the M400 engine, with simliar weight reductions as an example and I think Mr Nobles car was also not standard. My car was 4th/5th quickest of the standard cars, which did actually suprise me. That Rousch Noble handed everyone, including Chris Harris in an LP640 its arse on that day!

Nice time housemaster, very impressive. You hit the nail on the head, with drivers of equal skill (e.g. racing drivers) there would be little in it. I think the M400 is slightly more exploitable on a track and if you race, it would make a big difference over the course of an entire race. For the odd few laps which relative novices (like me) would do, there probably isn't much difference.

Ross's (Twerlie's) car has a Rousch exhaust and remap by Trevor Jasper (Rousch), plus maybe one or 2 more bits if I remember correctly. It has slightly more bhp than a standard M400. Shame there were no standard M400s there see how they compare.

[Housemaster]

Whilst Id agree with everything you say on the handling front I dont see the relevance when it comes to living with a car day to day. I cant imagine anyone buying an rs4 to use on a track for the reasons you give and the reasons vividley displayed in the tonio luzi vids. I find the understeering frustrating at times on the road let alone on a track. But I would again come back to my point about another car in the rs4 config and price range that is better?? I cant think of any at present that I would buy, but thats not to say there are none its just that I have not come across any.

It is simply a case of what is important to the individual, it’s a subjective call, and therefore its relevance is personal. You can’t see it, I can, we have different priorities nothing more, simply subjective components of a decision we all make. Steering feel, chasis balance, engine, brakes, I think the E92 betters the RS4 on all of them, but its a sum of the parts thing and the differences are very very small, and to others of little importance when compared to the damping, traction and perhaps 'quality' aspects of the Audi. I agree that in the UK, with our weather and roads the Audi is the more sensible car as it will be better more of the time.

We are all different thank god, its not a decision you can enforce or convince someone of, its down to the individual, I bought the RS4 don't forget !

[Housemaster]

The Noble that won was a full on Rousch conversion with SERIOUS bhp and it went like stink! Twerlies car was running with a slightly tuned version of the M400 engine, with simliar weight reductions as an example and I think Mr Nobles car was also not standard. My car was 4th/5th quickest of the standard cars, which did actually suprise me. That Rousch Noble handed everyone, including Chris Harris in an LP640 its arse on that day!

Nice time housemaster, very impressive. You hit the nail on the head, with drivers of equal skill (e.g. racing drivers) there would be little in it. I think the M400 is slightly more exploitable on a track and if you race, it would make a big difference over the course of an entire race. For the odd few laps which relative novices (like me) would do, there probably isn't much difference.

Ross's (Twerlie's) car has a Rousch exhaust and remap by Trevor Jasper (Rousch), plus maybe one or 2 more bits if I remember correctly. It has slightly more bhp than a standard M400. Shame there were no standard M400s there see how they compare.

I was happy with my 4 runs, I think I got the best from the car as the closeness of my times suggest.

Race 1 25.58 @ 156.80
Race 2 25.59 @ 157.02
Race 3 25.59 @ 158.02
Race 4 25.83 @ 155.71

Call me Mr Consistent!

[sykotoy]

I disagree with house mmaster, on watching those videos, those guys were <beep> around and if you look not taking the correct lines, my sway bars, and springs have all but eliminated understeer as long as the lines are right. You sir can suck my balls...

[SR71]

I agree with Housemaster...thank God we're all different!

I've driven 4WD cars since 1994 so my recent RWD experience is limited...aside from the wife's A3.

However, I'm at a loss to ascertain what the functional purpose of oversteer is?

The suggestion normally is, that if a car oversteers it must handle better....which is why we see F1 cars drifting round Monaco....or WRC cars eschewing 4WD in favour of RWD...

I can accept its mighty fun to drift your car round a track but surely thats only of import if you....want to drift your car round a track?

Most car manufacturers endeavour to engineer a degree of understeer into the chassis for obvious reasons.

It would appear to me that the ideal platform, if rapid progress is your goal, is one that is almost neutral either way, because once the car is sliding essentially a percentage of its traction is not driving it forward.

Maybe I need to get in a RWD car again.

I will admit though that I can get my particular setup on the RS4 to understeer quite easily on the road. I generally view this as a good thing though because it means I'm probably likely to wind up in a hedge if I keep it up instead of back off a little.

[mrdeli]

I think the top gear episode was great entertainment - doe the track represent what I want my car for - no not whatsoever - I doubt there are many who would ever drive like that - for one a set of new tyres a week would be enough to put 99.9% off. The test would have been much more relevant, though no doubt less entertaining if it had taken place over the roads of Wales or the like. I can't imagine many people buying any of these cars for hard track use - fast road use if what these machines are about and the safety net that the 4WD provides; especially in the UK weather is heads and shoulders above that of 4WD.

The M3 looked a possible purchase, the RS4 a solid purchase and the Merc, to me just looked like a hideous tarted up chariot - yuk!

[BTCC-MAN]

Housemaster brings some well reasoned discussion to this forum, unlike some I could mention... You should not regard anything Top Gear do as serious car testing or even credible journalism. The programme is concieved and made as pure entertainment, trust me I've made several episodes with them. The 'test' merely showed how close these cars really are and that it's all a matter of personal choice. I've now had the chance to test all 3 cars and I'm happy with my RS4 and would not change it for either of the other cars. As i've said before the M3 only gets interesting over 7000 rpm and looks and sounds less 'butch' than the RS4. The Merc is ALL engine but in a lazy way as a result of cc's unlike the Audi/BMW who's engines are more refined and race bred. It's irrellevant which car is fastest on track, who buys a 4 seater salloon based on track performance alone? In the real world, on British roads, in all conditions and to satisfy my need for speed, comfort, driving pleasure, thrills, looks, build quality and ownership pleasure the RS4 is the best. End of...

[jackwood]

Like has been said a million times already, every persons priorities, pleasures and desires are different, thank god.

Yesterday I piled the RS4 up with wife, kid, pram, presents, clothes, bags, and headed off to south Wales from Manchester, taking the awesome B4521 from Ross to Abergavenny for good measure. It was wet, windy and miserable. The kid slept most of the way, and the wife kept telling me to slow down!! It ate up that road with ease, and the journey was quick and painless, and the heated seats were nice, and the stereo sounded good. It cruised back up the M6 at 2/10ths of its ability.

But today I took the A49 down past Whitchurch. And I took the Cayman S. On the way back I turned around TWICE, plus took a major detour to track down a new M3 that passed me going the other way, just because I was having so much fun. It was still wet in places. The road was greasy, and the local farmer had thoughtfully drove his tractor up and down several sections. But the car was amazing. I've had it over 2 years and put 35k on the clock, but I still can't think what I'm going to change it for, if I bother. The RS4 is the wifes, and performs its secondary duty as my family play wagon with aplomb. I cant fault iy for that.

But with it's numb steering and understeery behaviour (and no, my wife doesn't want to swap sway bars and springs) it isn't the car I would choose to go out and DRIVE. Yes, it is much much faster in getting A-B in almost any condition (maybe not in the bone dry) and much faster getting from 0-60-100-150-190mph, but for me that is just numbers. I have no qualms admitting to anyone that my wife has a faster (much faster) car than me, because she does. But Real fun for me comes not from bragging about a stat sheet to my mates in the pub, but from interacting with the car and it's controls, feeling the road under the car, leaning on every bit of mechanical grip the car can muster and trusting the signals it sending you through the wheel, the seat and the sounds it produces doing it.
I love the RS4 for what it is and what it does. But driving the Cayman is what I lust after.