Wonderful article RS4 v M3 V C63

[sykotoy]

wow brought tears to my eyes ..nearly, we have special cars...


http://my.is/forums/f104/rs4-vs-m3-vs-c63-343868/

[DoctorD]

I still disagree with several of CAR's conclusions, but then we drove different cars so maybe that counts for some of our differences.

Firstly the conclusion about the RS4 being quicker than the M3. It's not in my experience, the difference is not great (as they say in their article) but the M3 puts down more power at the wheels (although similar peak torque) and yet weighs nigh on 100kg less. And no, traction is not an issue, not on a dry road anyway.

Secondly the tail-out capabilities of the M3 are not about hooning or showboating. Chris Harris captured it beautifully in a recent Autocar article, it's about being able to 'adjust' the cornering line on the limit. The RS4 is a great car to drive at 9/10ths, and I accept that most drivers won't even get it up to that level of effort, but on the limit the RS4 speaks in monosyllabic simplicity (i.e. back off please), whereas the M3 presents the driver with many more options and interacts in a way that is foreign the the front-axle biased RS4.

Like the reviewer in CAR I prefer the M3 for outright driving, but chose the RS4 for its wider range of talents and easier day-to-day livability. But I would also acknowledge that for the typical consumer, the RS4 will offer more appeal and reassurance. It's just rather dangerous to conclude about which is better, without setting the context of that evaluation out very clearly.

I also own an AMG 63 model (ML) and can easily envisage how the C63 will be less drivable in a range of conditions than the RS4. But even my 63 is quicker than my RS4, so the C63 will most definitely be so and there are times when I prefer to drive it than my RS4, so yet again I am sure that a conclusion over which is better will require careful setting out of the evaluation criteria.

One thing we can conclude though, that never has there been so much choice in this sector. We are truly lucky.

[P_G]

By the looks of things I'll just have to move house and have a 4 berth garage for all three (and the wife's car of course!)

Either that or buy a Golf GTi which we all know is the fastest car in the world and would trounce all three!

What a choice to have.

[mrdeli]

I think it's relevant to add that the RS4 seems to get substancially quicker as the miles go on. I recall this was extremely noyicable in my past subaru days when the sti engines really started getting good by 5000 -7000 miles. My RS4 has just 2500 on it now, but is much quicker than when new. From what I gather by 10000 miles there's more power to come again. I would agree that the M3 feels quicker though - but as an overall package the RS4 is exceptionally hard to beat. The M3 in particular has a very disappointing interior and as much as everyone likes to state that the interior doesn't matter so much as it's a drivers car - i think it's difficult to swallow at the 55k level. I also think that as you can get a speccable M3 within 8 weeks alot of other people are less than impressed with the new M3 to. The last model E46 was almost impossible to get for the first two years. Likewise with the RS4 for the first 18 months. Now that the wait for an M3 is the same give or take a few days as buying a Clio, things can not be good for the M3 residuals. Still you pays your money....

[tartan_rob]

There are a few distinct points here:

1) Who the hell buys a 4 seater car for the track, you want a track car, get an atom etc
2) If you are hanging the back out on a public road then you are on that fine line of loosing control and therefore possibly being involved in an accident. Get off our roads and drive within the safety limit and abilities of the driver and the car
3) Joe public buys these cars to drive in all weathers in all conditions in all family arenas (shopping, holidays etc). Do you want the security of 4wd control or rwd hang the ass out?

I find it hilarious about the rwd drive control thing. Remove all driver aids and see how much confidence you have to hang the car out on a DRY road with other cars around you. One could happily conclude that driving fast on public roads and hanging the rear out 'adjusting' the rear is not as much to do with the drivers stupidity (they may say ability) but more with the fact that they are driving outside their own envelope and relying on the car to get them through.

[tartan_rob]

One other point to note, the arguement about the M3 interior being nasty is spot on. How many of us spend more time standing drooling at the car rather than sitting in it? For that reason alone, the interior must be a fantastic place to be indeed make the driver feel special. The exterior looks have always (and should always) take 2nd place to interior comfort etc. If you want somehting to turn heads get a pink boxster softtop.

[DoctorD]

There are a few distinct points here:

1) Who the hell buys a 4 seater car for the track, you want a track car, get an atom etc
2) If you are hanging the back out on a public road then you are on that fine line of loosing control and therefore possibly being involved in an accident. Get off our roads and drive within the safety limit and abilities of the driver and the car
3) Joe public buys these cars to drive in all weathers in all conditions in all family arenas (shopping, holidays etc). Do you want the security of 4wd control or rwd hang the ass out?

I find it hilarious about the rwd drive control thing. Remove all driver aids and see how much confidence you have to hang the car out on a DRY road with other cars around you. One could happily conclude that driving fast on public roads and hanging the rear out 'adjusting' the rear is not as much to do with the drivers stupidity (they may say ability) but more with the fact that they are driving outside their own envelope and relying on the car to get them through.

You've missed the point. Firstly it is perfectly possible to hang the tail out on a public road, and do so inch perfect every time. It's a skill you can learn, although some people have a greater aptitude than others. Those nice sideways shots you see in the magazines are the result of 20-30 rehearsals to get just the right position, with just the right lighting and we do so week in week out... without losing control. It's a skill that can be learned the same way as trial biking, freeride boarding or hang gliding.

Driving any car quickly (and safely) is about optimising the available grip from both axles. In a good RWD chassis the process of transferring weight from front to rear and thereby allaying understeer is easier and very satisfying, whether the driver extends this to oversteer should be a matter of choice (talent permitting), but hanging the tail out has little to do with going quickly and is NOT the reason why one might choose RWD over 4WD, although it is bloody good fun.

If you're unfamiliar with it, there's a whole world of satisfaction involved in managing the interaction between front and rear axles, optimising these to improve agility and grip. Some 4WD chassis are set-up to provide some of this enjoyment, but it does not require a visible sign from the outside to show it's happening. Hence assuming driving a RWD chassis without ESP/TC must therefore be implicitly dangerous is very wrong..

[Ozrs4]

wow brought tears to my eyes ..nearly, we have special cars...


http://my.is/forums/f104/rs4-vs-m3-vs-c63-343868/

Hey, is there any forum you don't troll? And what were you doing over there with the Lexus boys anyway, traitor!!! hahaa.

[pippyrips]

I think it's relevant to add that the RS4 seems to get substancially quicker as the miles go on. I recall this was extremely noyicable in my past subaru days when the sti engines really started getting good by 5000 -7000 miles. My RS4 has just 2500 on it now, but is much quicker than when new. From what I gather by 10000 miles there's more power to come again. I would agree that the M3 feels quicker though - but as an overall package the RS4 is exceptionally hard to beat. The M3 in particular has a very disappointing interior and as much as everyone likes to state that the interior doesn't matter so much as it's a drivers car - i think it's difficult to swallow at the 55k level. I also think that as you can get a speccable M3 within 8 weeks alot of other people are less than impressed with the new M3 to. The last model E46 was almost impossible to get for the first two years. Likewise with the RS4 for the first 18 months. Now that the wait for an M3 is the same give or take a few days as buying a Clio, things can not be good for the M3 residuals. Still you pays your money....

I am really starting to see a difference in performance from my RS - it is noticeably quicker now with 9k on the clock than it was with 6k.

[tartan_rob]

You've missed the point......

We'll have to agree to disagree. People who drives fast cars for a living will always have RWD, and I've have had an M3 so I know what it is like to drive rwd. I am also an accomplished racer when required (although by all means not very good..). But however you tart it up, you cannot say that under normal circumstances in normal conditions that the RWD is safer. It simply is not and there is factual evidence to prove that. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the M3 is a great car, but the fact remains that for 99% of the population, 99% of the time who do not race cars for a living, 4wd is a much better comprimise. I would never track my family car so that fact that I can get the back to slide is irrelevant as is the idea that I would want to use the back to steer the car on normal roads. Like I said, if I want a car to steer from the rear, I'll go with an atom. For every other occasion I want a car that any idiot can jump in and drive fast in all weather if required.

On another note, if you have not got the back out of shape on the RS4, I suggest you alter your driving style. It is very easy to do.

[DoctorD]

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the M3 is a great car, but the fact remains that for 99% of the population, 99% of the time who do not race cars for a living, 4wd is a much better comprimise.

I fully agree with you, which reflects the conclusion we reached in EVO, but we still gave the nod to the M3 for driving pleasure, but by nowhere near the margin we first anticipated.

[RussianM3_dude]

I am no racer, however I very much enjoyed that RWD dynamics of my 130. I could use the gas to help it turn in a tight corner without even braking traction. Also, you get more of a sense of speed in a RWD car. The RS4 is basically all grip, with lesser tires then the Pilot Sports, I bet it wouldn't be as impressive.

[P_G]

I've got Conti's on mine and it feels great thanks!

[Casper]

I am no racer, however I very much enjoyed that RWD dynamics of my 130. I could use the gas to help it turn in a tight corner without even braking traction. Also, you get more of a sense of speed in a RWD car. The RS4 is basically all grip, with lesser tires then the Pilot Sports, I bet it wouldn't be as impressive.

Got contis mysef and it feels great. It would be larger of a difference in bmw IMO, because of the rwd.

[RussianM3_dude]

BMW is better balanced... almost 50/50, it's kinder on it's tires.