S4 - Am I asking for trouble?

2.7 V6 30v biturbo - 251bhp
2.7 V6 30v biturbo - 261bhp
Dippy
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Post by Dippy » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:33 pm

I was in the same position as you 6 years ago. That was before rs246.com started and possibly even audisport.net. So all I had was AudiWorld. There are 2 problems with AW:
1) 90% of the posts are from tossers or else enthusiasts pretending to be tossers
2) for a number of genuine reasons, there have been more cases of S4 turbo failure in the US than Europe
So like you I got scared about turbo failure. However unlike you I was not considering buying an S4... I had already bought one!

Now I am not an expert, and have far less S4 OCD than some of the members here ;), but I have owned an S4 for 6 years and have been active on forums for all that time so I have learnt a few things. And what I feel confident at concluding is:
1) There is no issue with the S4 that makes the turbos any more likely to fail than the turbo or turbos on any other car
2) The biggest factors in ensuring in S4 turbo reliability is as follows (probably in order of priority)
a) Allowing the turbos to cool down after hard use (refer to 'aftermarket pump' mod)
b) Allowing the turbos to warm up properly before stressing them
c) using the right oil (fully synthetic)
I haven't decided about the importance of regular oil changes (a good idea but I'm not sure that changing every 5K actually makes the turbos last longer than if it is changed every 10K), and boost levels (as long as they are not 'silly').

Of course this is all well and good if like me you bought your S4 from new and therefore know how it has been looked after. However if you buy used then you don't know. And furthermore even an S4 that has been looked after very well can have turbo failure due to bad luck. So I must conclude, as I have before, that every S4 owner needs to know where to find a few grand in case of turbo failure. If you really can't then you shouldn't have one. I know it sucks, but that's just the way it is.

To answer your question I believe that it is about £1500 for a pair of KO3s, and around 10 hours of labour replace them (might need to be corrected on that though). With a few extras that generally means a stealer will charge around £3K. No doubt you'd be able to find a specialist who could do it cheaper.

However please don't kid yourself. There are VERY few S4 owners who don't go stage 1 - the car is just crying out for it. And faced with needing turbo replacement, there are a few more who will replace with stock K03s, but the temptation to go with K04s will be STRONG.

In general you might only need work done on the car once a year, so getting to a specialist (there is also Dialynx in Swindon and QST in Haywards Heath) should be too bad. However there ARE some good Audi stealers about if you just want simple work done and don't mind paying for it. Audi Camberley has good reports and shouldn't be too difficult to get to for you.
2001 Silver S4 Avant
AmD remap, APR R1 DVs, APR bipipe, Full Miltek exhaust
H&R coilovers, AWE DTS, Porsche front brakes, Short-shifter, 18" RS4 replicas
Defi-HUD boost gauge / turbo-timer (with afterrun pump modification), Phatbox

wombar
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Post by wombar » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:23 pm

Thanks Dippy, that's a very informative reply :thumbs: This will be my first turbo car, I just need to do my research and make sure that I give myself as good a chance as possible of getting a car that is "less" likely to have problems. I'm not in any hurry so will see what cars become available over the next few months.

I'll keep scouting around the various for sale boards (here, piston heads, auto trader etc) and wait for a good one to come up in my budget. I'm hoping to get a facelift car for around £8.5k which doesn't have a lot miles on it (i.e. over 120,000), but I'll see.

jfeb
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Post by jfeb » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:09 pm

Although these are great cars I would classify them as somewhat specialist. If you want a car to just jump in and drive every day withouth thinking about it, without worrying about the mechanics of the car and without spending hours pouring over forums like this I would say that a B5 S4 is not for you. If you want a car that keeps you wondering whether x is still working properly or y is broken (turbos, f-hoses, TBBs, DVs etc etc etc), you want to join a community like this forum and in general you are willing to have a more "involved" ownership experience then this is the car for you.

Also, if you can't afford £3k to replace the turbos tomorrow, I wouldn't buy one. When they go, they give you little or no warning. Having £3k to cover the cost of replacing the turbos or having a cast-iron warranty that covers them (does such a think exist?!) is part of the basic cost of ownership in my book.

All IMO, of course.

davs4
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Post by davs4 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:47 pm

I wouldn't get wrapped up in Facelift cars are better than pre facelift IMHO. Had no problems with mine when it was standard...... On the plus side you may be able to save the difference in price to put towards K04's

DavidT
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Post by DavidT » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:03 pm

I think the K03's are more sensitive than the turbos on most cars because they are so small. It makes them sensistive to boost leaks because they can over-spin so easily.

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confusionhunter
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Post by confusionhunter » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:34 pm

Hmmm. I agree that the KO3s are sensitive to boost leaks but I wouldnt call them small for the S4, simply because they are serving a 1.35 litre engine each, where KO3s have been fitted to many many 1.8s without issue. I guess because there are 2 of everything ( IC's, pipework etc)the S4s are more prone to boost leaks than your everage 1.8T.

All depends on the trim level etc I suppose....
Mark.

wombar
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Post by wombar » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:55 am

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's much appreciated. To be honest, I think jfeb has probably hit the nail on the head. These cars are aimed at people who love driving (fast ;)) and as such should be treated as cars for people who aren't afraid of the turbo fairy (at least not as much as a normal person).

It's really the uncertainty of it that has got me worried. When people say to me there's no way I can predict when/if the turbos will go, I have a hard time with that I guess. Whilst I could afford £3k at pretty much any given moment, it's not something I want to be worrying about for the entire time I have the car. I'm also one of the most unlucky people you'll ever meet when it comes to things breaking unexpectedly, whether it be electronics, cars or anything. I've just got one of those auras I guess :)

Anyway, I'm suspecting that the S4 probably isn't for me at the moment. I'm sure I'd love owning the car until the turbo fairy paid me a visit. At the moment I think, with my luck, it would be a question of when, not if the turbos blew.

However, I tend to be pretty indecisive on these kinds of things so I'll ponder it for a while, it's not like I have to make a decision today. You never know, I might just stick £3k in the bank and go for it while I've got the cash.

If anyone else wants to chip in I'd love to hear some opinions.

Dippy
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Post by Dippy » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:12 pm

Whilst I hate to think that we were persuading a new member NOT to buy an S4, what you have written above convinces me that you shouldn't.
2001 Silver S4 Avant
AmD remap, APR R1 DVs, APR bipipe, Full Miltek exhaust
H&R coilovers, AWE DTS, Porsche front brakes, Short-shifter, 18" RS4 replicas
Defi-HUD boost gauge / turbo-timer (with afterrun pump modification), Phatbox

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TopBear
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Post by TopBear » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:29 pm

Dippy wrote:c) using the right oil (fully synthetic)
I haven't decided about the importance of regular oil changes (a good idea but I'm not sure that changing every 5K actually makes the turbos last longer than if it is changed every 10K), and boost levels (as long as they are not 'silly').
Having just been through the pain having to replace the worn camshafts and followers etc, on my RS4, which has been atrributed to the Longlife oil changes. Its been recommended to me to change the oil every 6K miles on the 'hot audis', not just to help prolong the turbo's as is suggested here, but to protect and prolong the engine's major internals.
:blackrs4: B5 RS4, MRC Remap, Milltek, RS6\B7 Brakes, Black\Carbon

MCB
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Post by MCB » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:22 am

Wombar for my 2p, I bought my S4 approx 3.5 yrs ago MY 2000 so Fl one owner approx 35K and apart from general maintenance (I do myself no biggy) it has been totally reliable. 2500 mile family holiday on the continent without a second thought ETC.

Probably one of the cheapest performance cars I have owned - they have all been.

You may be looking at a higher miler however mine is in that camp now and is running just as strong as it always has so stop worrying about the turbo fairy and just buy a well looked after/enthusiast owned example and go for it IMHO.
S4B5 Avant

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Turbo Joe
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Post by Turbo Joe » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:01 am

My turbos went at 75000 miles. Replacing them with KO4s. Car goes in for the transplant on the 10th of next month. As much as I warmed up/cooled down the car, they still kicked the bucket. Sods law unfortunately. Still have to say that the S4 is a wonderful car to drive and has never failed to put a smile on my face.
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Harper--D
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Post by Harper--D » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:10 am

Why not try and find a recenlty k04'ed car?? Good luck finding 1 but you might spot 1 somewhere!!!
Dave.

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Post by C-24 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:29 am

Mines running on stock turbos and no problem so far, and the car is chipped.
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wombar
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Post by wombar » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:36 pm

Thanks for your replies everyone, it certainly helps to hear of people who have not had any problems. I've actually found one on Piston Heads that looks very promising, does this belong to anyone on here?

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/194973.htm

I've been thinking about the S4's, and the more I look at them, the more I want one ;) Trouble is, there seem to be very few facelift cars anywhere near where I live (just outside Watford) with the nearest being Swindon. I'm thinking at this stage that I'll stick £3k in the bank for emergency turbo replacements and just take my chances.

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Matt_H
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Post by Matt_H » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:53 pm

What about this one?

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/207811.htm

Its in Luton, so pretty near you, and as its a bit higher mileage and therefore cheaper, gives you half the money towards new turbos - in fact with this car and an increase of £1k or so in your budget, you could get this and fit new K04's yourself!

Matt

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