Oil change or not?

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I have hard data on 10 RS4's in the US. 30 oil analysis samples across these engines,

So, please post the full data then!

from 600 miles to 17000 miles shows that FSI causes massive fuel dilution of the oil,

Yawn !!!! Do state how FSI causes "massive dilution of the oil" ???

We are currently testing a new custom blended oil in the US.

And what is wrong with the oil that the factory deemed satisfactory, namely a 504.00 oil?

You have several choices with approved oils.

Yes, any that is tested and approved by VW AG to meet the 504.00 specification.

Change your oil often (every 3000 miles).

Oh, that is just sheer "old skool" nonsence!

Have an oil analysis lab test your oil periodically.

That is fair advice, but how, in practical terms, would you recommend we all do this.

Monitor it's performance, and the performance of different oils and determine which is the best for RS4 FSI V8, based on measurable facts, not conjecture, myth, or marketing. I've done the latter on US engines and have concluded that all Audi approved oils in the US are crap in this engine,

That is beacuse you are not using 504.00 oils

and have had an oil formulator create an oil specifically designed to work well in this engine. So far the data says that it is.

Ohhh, so he happens to have access to greater R&D resources than the combined might of VAG and Castrol ???

[Teutonic_Tamer]

0W-20 is too thin for this engine.

Actually, it is not "recommended" - on the same simple grounds that the VW standards are not determined by any viscosity requirements.

It will not provide a good ring seal,

What an utter, utter load of BS. The "viscosity" has absolutley nothing to do with the quality of the ring seal!

and may very well cause bearing failure due to excessively thin oil films.

More BS. Bearings are lubricated through hydrodynamic methods. A lower viscosity will have no effect on the quality of supply of lubricant to the bearings. Why do you think that 0W-10, and 0W-20 oils are used in high performance, high revving race engines!

You'll want to stay with a good 5W-30 oil.

Which has been tested by VW AG and approved to 504.00.

Fuchs Titan GT1 is supposed to be an incredible European oil, and is Audi approved.

Er, and so are many other oils approved to the 504.00 standard.

If I could get it in the states, I would have tried it. It is a state-of-the-art oil according to my oil tribologist here in the States.

As are all the 504.00 oils.

[VARSITY]

I am sorry I started this, just wanted an opinion on changing my oil!

In future I will ask my wife, even she won't get so mad and upset.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I am sorry I started this, just wanted an opinion on changing my oil!

Hey - no worries. It is just a healthy debate, with some "home truths" being aired.

There was just too much old skool BS being posted.

In future I will ask my wife, even she won't get so mad and upset.

Ha haaa - are you sure - "hell hath no fury, like a woman scorned" !!!

What in particular did you want to know, because as I type this, the topic review is blank?

OK, having re-read the thread, where do you live (what country), what servicing regime was programmed by the supplying stealer, how many miles have you done (since the last oil change, or from new), and how do you drive the car?

[RI_RS4]

Teutonic, I do not know what your problem here is. We do not have the luxury of using 504 oils in the US. They are not approved. The approved oils are 502. But the difference is mainly sulfur and ash levels for Euro environmental standards with 504 oils. I will post some of my data, but not all of it, since I've spent around $4000 for consulting on oil for this engine. Yes, I do have access to a world-class oil tribologist and racing oil formulators, people who have worked for major racing teams, engine designers and oil suppliers. My tribologist is Terry Dyson www.dysonanalysis.com. If you want your oil tested, send it to him in the US.

Actually, ring seal and tolerance of fuel wash down is quite dependent upon the molecular structure of the oil and it's additive chemistry. And fuel dilution and flashpoint measurements are almost totally dependent upon the quality of the seal. The 502 and 504 standards perform live engine tests on the 1.8T engine, which is manifold injected and not direct injected like ours is. There lies a big difference. Now, you in the UK may not have as large a problem, since your engines do run in stratified mode, which will cook off any diluted oil, but that remains to be seen. In the US we have a problem. Here are measurements of flashpoint and 100C viscosity across multiple oils and multiple RS4 engines over the last year. If you know anything about oil, you will recognize that the out of the bottle flash point for most modern synthetics is about 400 F, and that when the oil reaches flashpoint it begins to volatize, which means that it will either be vented by crankcase ventilation or will be burned off in the combustion chamber, leaving behind some level of deposits. You can see from our measurements that flashpoint dangerously reduces to extremely low levels, and the oil shears down to a lower weight. (These are all 5w-40 or 0w-40 oils here in the US). Wear also tracks fuel dilution, since fuel in the oil tends to breakdown exposed metal, and causes short term acidity in the oil, before the oil additive package can correct, which takes time. You can also see the latest samples on my test oils, which are much more fuel dilute and shear stable.

There are also some short mileage test sample runs, which were used to see how fast the oil dilutes under different operating environments, including cruising, high throttle, WOT and Idle. Because of the fuel dilute problem and the excessive wear it begins to cause, oil has not stayed in my engine for more than 3500 miles. We do have a sample on Castrol that stayed in an owners engine for 7000 miles. It was severely degraded and the engine had begun consuming oil at a rate of 1 Qt per 500 miles. After the change, no consumption. I personally have not seen any oil consumption after the 1st 2000 miles. But, I do not let my oil degrade. With my newly formulated oil, I hope that I can go much longer between changes. However, tribological analysis will guide and direct that decision.

Mileage Mileage on Oil Oil Viscosity 100C cSt Flashpoint
610 610 Factory Oil 10.6 295
1808 1808 Factory Oil 9.4 315
2030 2030 Factory Oil 10.4 390
2130 2130 Factory Oil 10.8 320
2201 1591 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 11.7 335
3067 3067 Factory Oil 10.8 320
3134 1326 Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40 12.1 320
5005 2250 Amsoil 5W40 11.4 340
5298 3490 Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40 11.1 415
5633 2487 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 11.5 250
7242 4175 Motul Xcess 5W-40 11.7 275
7770 2600 Motul 8100 5W40 9.7 220
8225 3000 Amsoil 5W40 11.4 300
8233 2935 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 11.3 310
8815 143 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 12.4 365
8866 51.1 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 12.6 345
8916 50 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 12.2 280
8916 40 min Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 12.4 280
9510 537 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 11.9 270
10059 1086 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 12.4 280
10606 1633 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 11.6 270
11485 3053 Amsoil 5W40 11.4 300
11896 2923 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 9.9 235
12100 7000 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 10.2 230
12803 2803 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 11.9 265
14779 1562 Test oil 1 (10W-30) 10.9 340
15738 672 Test oil 2 (5W-40) 13.6 360
16554 1488 Test oil 2(5W-40) 13.8 345

[VARSITY]

Whoooooooosh, there it goes over my head!

Just going to stick to good old Audi recommended oil.

Thanks for your assistance.

Note to self.......must get out more often.

[gw007]

Regarding all the stuff RI_RS4 has said above, do people actually do all that?? I couldnt really be arsed to go to all the effort of sending my oil off for analysis and all that crap... I mean is it really worth it?

Hmmm, $4000 spent to find out if you can go longer between oil changes... wouldnt that $4000 have paid for oil changes once a month for the next 10 years or so?

I will check the oil levels now and again, top it up when required, do an oil change when I remember or think its needed and thats about it...

[RI_RS4]

GW

Normal analysis is inexpensive. $50 a sample. If you go to the dyson analysis website you'll find a sample bottle order page. Just fill the bottle with oil that you extract from your engine and send it back by UPS/FedEx or whatever your favorite delivery service is.

http://www.dysonanalysis.com

Once I saw that there were problems with the engine in the US that Audi would not admit to, I decided to spend some additional money to hire a consultant to better understand the problem, and help formulate an oil that would correct the problems. For a $70K+ car, with a $25K engine, that I want to keep and run on the road and track for quite a few years, the additional expense is nothing. Heck, Milltek exhaust costs nearly that much, and I'll spend more than that on tires over the life of the car.



Teutonic,

To answer more of your questions.

1) already answered

2) The RS4 has thin, light, low tension racing rings and require the oil to provide the final seal. normally a good oil will do this, and leave a light oil film on the hard Alusil cylinder walls. Alusil is etched and polished leaving a glass-like surface, which makes it very easy for oil and fuel to flow down through the ring gaps and into the oil pan. Because FSI injectors are in the cylinder head, and inject at 1800 psi force between the two intake valves and across towards the cylinder walls, there is an opportunity for fuel to contact the far cylinder wall surface and wash down. This happens primarily at cold start and low rpms when the ECU runs the mixture rich and airflow is low. (normally the tumble swirl airflow pattern will distribute the charge evenly, but at low throttle, and idle, there may not be enough flow to do this.) The oil needs to contain the fuel, keep it from flowing down the wall, and seal off the combustion chamber from the area below the rings. It appears that all Audi FSI engines have an issue with this, and you'll find that if you do oil analysis on them that the percentage of fuel in the oil is higher with this generation of engines than it is with previous generations.

3) The 502 oils approved in the US do not respond to fuel dilution well. They shear chemically to a lower viscosity, have increased wear on the cams, pistons and bearing surfaces, and degrade to very low flashpoints, which can cause nasty valve and combustion chamber deposits.

4) Yes, we do have several choices with approved oils. All have thus far performed poorly.

5) My often oil changes at 3000 miles is not due to your "old skool" slur. It is based on real analysis of real oil in a real engine, and based on the advise of a person who has been an oil expert in the industry for 25 years.

6) Labs like Dyson Anaysis can do the oil analysis for you. Go to http://www.dysonanalysis.com and order a prepaid sample bottle for $50 US. Take your oil sample and then mail it back using UPS, FedEx, DHL and once the lab has received it you will receive a professional analysis report with comments and recommendations back within 2 days to a week of receipt.

7) Right, I'm in the US and low SAPS 504 oils are not yet available. Our Audi requirement is 502. These perform poorly. However, it is not unreasonable to believe that 504 oils will have similar problems, unless they have leading edge chemistry. Fuchs Titan GT1 is one such leading edge chemistry oil.

My experts do not have greater resources than Castrol or Audi. But my racing oil formulator does have patents on some extremely interesting chemistry that Castrol does not have access to, and does not have to beat the living crap out of the gross margin equation to make a zillion dollars. They can blend the best oil that can be bought, with the right input, and my tribologist has been able to give that input. Audi/VW can be a bit shortsighted with oil, since they have a standard that covers the entire product line from 1.8L engines to V8's and V10's. If you believe that the requirements for oil for a 4 cylinder engine are the same as for a 420 HP racing engine, you're smoking something that I'd like to have.

regards,

Scott

[tartan_rob]

For anyone that is interested, I have purchased Motul 330v racing 5w30 for the car. I'll get back into the routine of changin every 4k miles...

I'll let you know how it goes.

[tartan_rob]

For anyone that is interested, I have purchased Motul 330v racing 5w30 for the car. I'll get back into the routine of changin every 4k miles...

I'll let you know how it goes.

[flashyg]

RI_RS4
I use Terry my self, a fantastic rep follows this man.
Simply ignorance is bliss.
Many owners will never get into this but this is simply their loss.
Fantastic post, may be better placed in the Tuning or s& rs category on a sticky oil thread.
Many other forum long standing users and well known tuners are well into this subject.
Good post.
G

[RI_RS4]

Silly me. I never noticed those categories until you mentioned them.

Yes, Terry Dyson is amazing. I cannot speak highly enough about the man. The oil that he's designed for the RS4 engine is nothing short of incredible. Current analysis shows it fighting fuel dilution better than any approved oil, and with at least 1/2 the wear or better. I sent my 3K mile sample off, which had 2 track days at Watkins Glen, to his lab today. I should have the results early next week, but the 1500 mile sample is already stunning.

Anything that I know about oil is a poor distillation of what he has taught me.

[RI_RS4]

Actually, it is not "recommended" - on the same simple grounds that the VW standards are not determined by any viscosity requirements.

Sure they are. Audi specs require an HTHS of >=3.5. It is physically impossible for a 20W oil to meet this requirement, and very difficult for a 30W oil. 30W oils require some nasty high temperature viscosity modifiers to achieve such a high HTHS. This spec is required by high temperatures encountered in turbocharged engines. Unfortunately, the same viscosity modifiers shear like crazy and reduce the actual viscosity after a short period of time in the engine.

What an utter, utter load of BS. The "viscosity" has absolutley nothing to do with the quality of the ring seal!

Sorry, you're wrong. The molecular structure of the oil and viscosity modifiers determines the film thickness. For low tension rings, like are found in the RS4 engine, the film thickness and viscosity are extremely important to the seal. Using oil analysis, we can even measure the effectiveness of that seal.

More BS. Bearings are lubricated through hydrodynamic methods. A lower viscosity will have no effect on the quality of supply of lubricant to the bearings. Why do you think that 0W-10, and 0W-20 oils are used in high performance, high revving race engines!

True, and the pressure supported by the bearing determines the viscosity of the oil required to support that weight, along with the bearing clearances. If bearing clearances are too large, as was the case in older engine designs, low weight oils will flow too well and not fully coat the bearing surfaces. This is combated in modern racing engine design by using very tight bearing tolerances. Low weight racing oils are often used in qualifying, and switched over to higher weight oils for better wear protection. However, there are no blanket statements here, since the high pressure and antifriction additive packages are designed to make up for any deficiencies in low oil weight.

You'll want to stay with a good 5W-30 oil.

Which has been tested by VW AG and approved to 504.00.

Fuchs Titan GT1 is supposed to be an incredible European oil, and is Audi approved.

Er, and so are many other oils approved to the 504.00 standard.

True, but some oils are much better than others. Not all 504.00 oils are equal. Fuchs is known for its extremely advanced oil chemistry. Some oil analysis comparisons between Castrol Edge and Fuchs Titan GT1 will show quickly which is a better performer.

If I could get it in the states, I would have tried it. It is a state-of-the-art oil according to my oil tribologist here in the States.

As are all the 504.00 oils.

There are different levels of state-of-the-art.

[Andyuk911]

I am running Fuchs Titan GT1

[VARSITY]

RI_RS4
I use Terry my self, a fantastic rep follows this man.
Simply ignorance is bliss.
Many owners will never get into this but this is simply their loss.
Fantastic post, may be better placed in the Tuning or s& rs category on a sticky oil thread.
Many other forum long standing users and well known tuners are well into this subject.
Good post.
G

What do you use on the Rover?