munched engine...ouch! not for the faint of heart

4.2 V8 32v Naturally Aspirated - 414 bhp
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ArthurPE
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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:41 pm

really?
how about F1 using it?
doesn't it help run a higher compression ratio due to charge cooling effect, therefore more power and efficiency?

BMW uses it in their most expensive cars
in fact all their cars use except the M3/M5 and possible the 3.0 engines
the balance do, incuding the XM's

I'll check on MB, but I suspect they do...
yes they use it on current models
as new engines are introduced it is adopted
in fact they built the first DI car 60 years ago

The Third Generation of Mercedes-Benz Direct Injection Systems:
The world’s first gasoline engine with direct fuel injection was the 1954 Mercedes-Benz 300SL Gullwing. Since then, the company has pioneered direct injection for several high-efficiency European models, including the 2006 CLS350 CGI, powered by the world’s first gasoline engine with piezo-electric direct injection and spray-guided combustion. This advanced V6 engine achieved 10 percent better fuel economy versus the normal V6 with port injection.

The fuel system in the new bi-turbo V8 represents the third generation of modern Mercedes-Benz gasoline direct injection systems, and the first to be offered in the U.S. market. System pressure of the electronic direct injection system is similar to less precise mechanical injection systems – up to 200 bar or 2,840 psi. The new V8 makes use of industry-leading electronics technology first used on Mercedes-Benz diesels – piezo-electric fuel injectors that spray gasoline directly into the combustion chambers. In the past, nearly all gasoline engines have used indirect port fuel injection.

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/merc ... v8-engine/
Mercedes-Benz AMG Introduces New Twin-Turbo Direct Injection V8 Engine
The new AMG twin-turbo V8 produces 536 horsepower and 590 lb-ft of torque, while the outgoing engine produced 518 hp and 465 lb-ft

so it looks like MB is 'on board' too, ;)

Porsche is using it across the board, as is Ferrari
hardly paragons of mpg and economy, lol

in fact a clean car will be faster...perceptably? no, but theoretically, yes...

the coking is a consequence of the scoring, not vice versa...
many borescopes have been performed by Audi on RS4's (at least in the US) and coking is not an issue...




SR71 wrote:IMHO, DI is all about emissions and economy...nothing else.

Performance and economy may not be diametrically opposed, but no-one here bought a B7 because its good on the juice or spits out 322g/m of CO2...

The fact that Mercedes and BMW don't use it in their top of the pile applications speaks volumes.

I'm sure they'll become increasingly common as the technology matures and I'm sure the X5M (and no doubt the latest M5) application is yards ahead of the NA V8 in the B7.

Whats funny is that a good proportion of owners here like detailing their car. I'm sure they do it partly for fun, but, I'd suggest, its also to protect the "health" of their investment.

But it makes bugger all difference though to the performance though does it....I mean having a clean car doesn't make you go faster does it?

Yet you have those advocating that it is pointless looking after the internals of their engine (I mean fancy cleaning all that s**t out of your engine) when arguably, it makes a significant difference to its performance!

So why is one important and not the other??!!

From where I see it, an engine that can "destroy" its piston geometry with that amount of contamination in such a short space of time is fundamentally compromised.

It doesn't matter if the effect on performance is negligible because ostensibly when I bought the car I paid as much as I did for super-duper cylinder metallugry and piston design to ensure I had the best.

If a set of old Vauxhall Vectra pistons with 100K miles on them would have done the job, I've been robbed!

:wink:

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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:55 pm

damn 'kraut' dimwit engineers at Porsche...
heck considering their corporate relationship with Audi/VW they would know all about the exploding engines and suffocating intake tracts due to DI related deposits...
damn them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we are smarter and know more than them...they should be listening to us..DI is the devil's spawn!!! lol
even the 997TT, GT2 and GT3 use it!!!! what are they thinking?! ...obviously, they are not...dirty sons of b!i#C#e$ !
:D

http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche ... injection/

Taking the direct route means not compromising. The same applies to our latest generation of sportscars. They offer impressive power and prove that even highperformance cars can achieve moderate fuel consumption and emission values. Thanks to new direct fuel injection (DFI).

The new Boxster S engine has direct fuel injection (DFI). With millisecond precision, fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber at up to 120 bar pressure via electromagnetically actuated injection valves.

The spray and cone angles have been optimised for torque, power output, fuel consumption and emissions by enabling a homogeneous distribution of the air/fuel mixture and, therefore, effective combustion.

Depending on throttle input, multiple fuel injection takes place.

DFI improves the internal cooling of the combustion chamber by preparing the mixture directly in the cylinder. The resulting higher compression ratio (12.5:1) helps to deliver more power along with enhanced engine efficiency. It has therefore been possible to reduce CO2 emissions by up to 16% and fuel consumption by up to 15%*. Injection is regulated by the electronic engine management system. The exhaust gas cleaning system ensures that emissions remain well below even the strict limits of the EU5 emission standard, thus helping to protect the environment.
Last edited by ArthurPE on Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Sims » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:05 pm

ArthurPE wrote:...

many borescopes have been performed by Audi on RS4's (at least in the US) and coking is not an issue...
Do please tell us of your involvement with this campaign, and some hard data.

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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:07 pm

Sims wrote:
ArthurPE wrote:...

many borescopes have been performed by Audi on RS4's (at least in the US) and coking is not an issue...
Do please tell us of your involvement with this campaign, and some hard data.
I have no 'involvement'
other than being aware of it..

the campaign was posted by others...it's in the public domain...
do your own research...I'm the last guy you should be asking to do work for you...and you're the last guy I would help...

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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:15 pm

oh lordy Ferrari has subcumbed!!!

Ferrari lifting horsepower with direct injection http://www.leftlanenews.com/ferrari-to- ... -2009.html
Ferrari has caught onto the direct injection bug and is currently working on implementing the efficient engine technology for its future powertrains. The feature has been used on Audis for years but from 2009 onwards Ferrari will be employing it on several of its supercars. First in line is the F430, followed by the 612 Scaglietti and then the 599 GTB Fiorano.

Engineers from Ferrari are working closely with Bosch, the same vehicle parts supplier Audi uses for its own FSI direct-fuel injection system. Reports claim the technology will allow Ferrari to increase engine performance by 10% and reduce emissions by 40%.


the end is near...cats and dogs living in harmony, Ferrari & Porsche using DI
what is left to go wrong!!!!

:lol:

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Post by SR71 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:49 pm

So you've got the cut and paste thing nailed Art.

;)

No-one is denying all that....its all common knowledge. Most of the quotes extol the virtue of the technology with reference to economy and emissions as already stated.

Ferrari, Porsche, MB, BMW are all making DI cars although the E92 M3 and C63 are not.

Fantastic.

Lets leave aside the mainstream cars each manufacturer makes. We are not interested in the application of the technology to a car which makes 2-300hp.

The way I see it, Porsche are the exception to the rule as there are some high mileage Porsches around. They are truly the everyday supercar. It will be interesting to see how their cars cope.

As of now, there are 35 F430 Coupes on Pistonheads. The highest mileage car is 21000 miles for a 2005 LHD car. The highest mileage UK model is ~10000 miles. Its probably had 3 owners.

So I suggest the kind of people who buy GT2's and GT3's and F430's and 599's wouldn't give a **** about the downsides of DI because they never own the car for long enough for the issue to really rear its ugly head, and even if it did, they'll just get another one...

But midway between a 2.0TFSi and a 599, you've got the B7 RS4, whose owners paid alot of cash for a 420hp performance car with a "first generation" DI feature.

These guys don't get
The spray and cone angles have been optimised for torque, power output, fuel consumption and emissions by enabling a homogeneous distribution of the air/fuel mixture and, therefore, effective combustion.
because their inlet tract and piston heads are so contaminated with carbon, and because they may do 50K miles on the car, spend most of their life with 375hp instead of 420hp.

Now if you're OK with that, thats fine.

There was once a time when people thought Thalidomide was OK.

;)
58 C6 RS6 Stage 2+
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi

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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:15 pm

I like to back-up my positon, unlike some others ;)

apparently all did not know...
you basically stated Audi used it, others did not, specifically BMW & MB
but they do...and somehow Audi was remiss, or lacking, for doing so...

BMW's most expensive car, ie, 'top of the pile':
4.4-liter, 32-valve 400-hp V-8 engine with TwinPower Turbo technology, High Precision Direct Injection, 4 overhead camshafts, and Double-VANOS steplessly variable valve timing

so does the Alpina B7...

most stated power also...Porsche & Ferrari
it only stands to reason if combustion is more efficient you will:
have more power for the same fuel Q, and less by-product
have the same power for less fuel Q, and again, less by-product
I'm not sure what your point is...

yes, each model may be low volume (as is the RS4):
but add up all the Ferrari's, Porsches, BMW's, etc., and it dwarfs the number of RS4's...DI 997's alone exceed the number of all RS4's sold...
Porsche sold far more DI cars in the UK alone in 2009/2010 than ALL RS4's ever produced! this does not count the RoW...
the US is Porsches largest market
how many BMW 3, 5 & 7 series are sold? many with DI
a couple hundred 1000? vs ~15k RS's ???

btw the XM's are DI, as are the GT2 and GT3, as will be the next gen M3/M5..as are the new AMG engines...

but that is all moot...the physics is the same, as is the manufactuer, Bosch for the most part...

I would also venture, the GT2 or F612 owner will be as finnicky about their car as an RS4 owner...or are you saying you're smarter than them? ok

most folks around here are basing the 'position' on DI from a few posts on the internet, ignoring the reality of the situation...
most, if not all, high end/hi po cars will be DI wthin a few years...most are NOW...
lower cost cars, probably not due to cost, but who knows...as the tech becomes more prevalent, cost will go down...the benefits are unquestionable...

we need to acknowledge they (the mfgs) know more than us, much more...and one engine failure does not imply anything in regards to DI...

the RS4 makes rated power ~420, and deposits do not cost power, that has been proven...and I AM copasetic with that...

are you saying DI will cause gross physical deformaties?
wow, you are 'out there'


SR71 wrote:So you've got the cut and paste thing nailed Art.

;)

No-one is denying all that....its all common knowledge. Most of the quotes extol the virtue of the technology with reference to economy and emissions as already stated.

Ferrari, Porsche, MB, BMW are all making DI cars although the E92 M3 and C63 are not.

Fantastic.

Lets leave aside the mainstream cars each manufacturer makes. We are not interested in the application of the technology to a car which makes 2-300hp.

The way I see it, Porsche are the exception to the rule as there are some high mileage Porsches around. They are truly the everyday supercar. It will be interesting to see how their cars cope.

As of now, there are 35 F430 Coupes on Pistonheads. The highest mileage car is 21000 miles for a 2005 LHD car. The highest mileage UK model is ~10000 miles. Its probably had 3 owners.

So I suggest the kind of people who buy GT2's and GT3's and F430's and 599's wouldn't give a **** about the downsides of DI because they never own the car for long enough for the issue to really rear its ugly head, and even if it did, they'll just get another one...

But midway between a 2.0TFSi and a 599, you've got the B7 RS4, whose owners paid alot of cash for a 420hp performance car with a "first generation" DI feature.

These guys don't get
The spray and cone angles have been optimised for torque, power output, fuel consumption and emissions by enabling a homogeneous distribution of the air/fuel mixture and, therefore, effective combustion.
because their inlet tract and piston heads are so contaminated with carbon, and because they may do 50K miles on the car, spend most of their life with 375hp instead of 420hp.

Now if you're OK with that, thats fine.

There was once a time when people thought Thalidomide was OK.

;)

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Post by SR71 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:32 pm

I've commented many times before on the DI B7 versus non-DI E92 versus non-DI C63...

Audi led the charge...or was it Mitsubishi...or was it Benz?

:wink:

The day owners here in the UK start claiming that spending their cash on having their B7's "cleaned" is a waste of money, I'll start believing carbon isn't an issue.

Meanwhile, those of us in our armchairs keep pontificating...
I would also venture, the GT2 or F612 owner will be as finnicky about their car as an RS4 owner...or are you saying you're smarter than them? ok
At Castle Coombe a few weeks ago, I enjoyed a day with a bunch of 996 GT3 RS, 996 GT2, 997 Gen 2 GT3, DBS, CSL, R500 etc etc lawyers....errrr I mean, owners.

Not one of them had anything to say about the DI debate.

Probably because most of their cars aren't DI!

FWIW.

DI is the future and the technology is no doubt getting better but that doesn't help existing owners.

:D
58 C6 RS6 Stage 2+
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi

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Post by Sims » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:00 pm

SR71 wrote:
FWIW.

DI is the future and the technology is no doubt getting better but that doesn't help existing owners.

:D
And therefore the changes to the RS5 are revealing e.g. engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

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Post by Sims » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:35 pm

ArthurPE wrote:
Sims wrote:
ArthurPE wrote:...

many borescopes have been performed by Audi on RS4's (at least in the US) and coking is not an issue...
Do please tell us of your involvement with this campaign, and some hard data.
I have no 'involvement'
other than being aware of it..

the campaign was posted by others...it's in the public domain...
do your own research...I'm the last guy you should be asking to do work for you...and you're the last guy I would help...
How about helping all the other people on here for this is your main Audi forum, surely they would be interested in this important development.

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Post by S2tuner » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:05 pm

ArthurPE wrote:damn 'kraut' dimwit engineers at Porsche...
heck considering their corporate relationship with Audi/VW they would know all about the exploding engines and suffocating intake tracts due to DI related deposits...
damn them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we are smarter and know more than them...they should be listening to us..DI is the devil's spawn!!! lol
even the 997TT, GT2 and GT3 use it!!!!
I think instead of posting as many swear words you should have spent a bit longer to check your sources and double check the fact that Porsche do NOT use DI on any GT engine, be it GT2, GT3, GT3RS, or GT2RS. Only the 997TT and the Carreras get it, as well as the Caymans/Boxsters and Cayennes, but NO GT2/3 engine has DI as of yet.

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Post by gottanS » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:36 pm

My pennies worth, the use of direct injection (I believe) is not the issue, just burning petrol and air in the cylinder does not produce the amount of carbon buildup shown. The fact that for emission control purposes the crankcase ventilation is now fed into the engine so the engine also digests a significant amount of oil is what does it. We all know the oil separator is not upto the job and the engines are known for oil consumption.

The fact that pistons are fitted with oil control rings says to me that oil in the combustion chamber is not a good idea and then we actually force feed the engine with an oil/air mixture and wonder why it's full of carbon after a few thousand miles.

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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:44 pm

Sims wrote:
SR71 wrote:
FWIW.

DI is the future and the technology is no doubt getting better but that doesn't help existing owners.

:D
And therefore the changes to the RS5 are revealing e.g. engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C
not according to Audi...
it ~ the same as the RS4 (and just about every other car 200F/93C)
hot oil would increase the issue, more vapor, etc.
not help it
cooler thicker oil would help

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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:45 pm

Sims wrote: How about helping all the other people on here for this is your main Audi forum, surely they would be interested in this important development.
I have, through other channels
I spoke to more than a few, and PM'ed with many more...
in fact I've spoken to people who have this special diagnostic servcie by Audi...

but you are outside the circle of trust
:lol:

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Post by 2manytoys » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:52 pm

For all those genuinely interested in trying to understand what happened I have some more information.

(I'm sure Arthur will jump in and dribble on some useless information, maybe quoting the diameter of my right foot vs the flavour of mint I eat on the highway, combinded to give off a toxic gas which resulted in less power, but it was perceived less power, as mints and foot odor does not cause power loss)

Sooooo, I checked out the bottom end and pistons. It's special engine indeed. The pistons are like none I've seen before. The block and bottom end are solid as it can be. The crank is balanced with what looks like perfect precision. There are oil injectors to spray underneath the pistion. Hell, the sump is even baffled to stop oil surge (why would a road car need that... but hey, when does a road car have a lap timer). The effort gone into this is obvious, and you can see why it can rev to 8250. When looking at it, the comment made was "this sucker could rev at 8000 all day and not have a problem"

So what about the carbon. Well, it's everywhere around the top of the pistions, it's around the rings too. You can see that it's making it's way down, not up. This is clear. Oh, the barrings and crank are perfect, not a single scratch I could see. Even the rings, other than cabon deposits everywhere, the rings look good. They are not gouged as far as I can see (I agree something was wrong hence the score mark, but otherwise ok). I don't believe the bores are glazed either.

My finger is firmly on the carbon doing this damage more now than previous. What come first, either excess oil vapour or carbon build up, who cares, the end result to me looks like damage due to carbon.

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