Fuel adatives....

[ArthurPE]

I just read the section on the crankcase vent system in the RS4 engine training manual posted below...

I can see how oil deposits are an inherent issue with this motor...
the cyclone seperator(s) can be, and are, bypassed under certain normal operating conditions, allowing untreated oil laden gas into the intake...

it's a complicated system compared to most cars...
3 cyclones
a regulating piston ~ to pressure to sequence the cyclones...the higher, the more cyclones in parallel
a bypass piston, too high or low a pressure, it bypasses untreated gas gas...
a pressure regulating valve to control the system pressure...

a simple replaceable filter may mitigate the problem...

[JG1012]

I'd highly recommend that you contact Terry Dyson at www.dysonanalysis.com and utilize his service to analyze your oil and suggest solutions to this problem. He consulted on my RS4 and has had over 100 oil analysis samples on RS4 engines pass through his lab.

There are several aspects to the valve deposit problem.

1) Oil in this engine is being chemically attacked by massive amounts of fuel dilution. This is causing quick degradation of the oil.

2) When the oil is diluted and has been degraded, it is subject to higher volatization, which is then being sucked into the intake tract.

3) All known Audi-approved oils, whether US or European spec, were never designed for the prolonged chemical attack from fuel. As a result, they crash quickly.

4) Most fuels are not specifically designed for direct injection, and so do not provide the additional upper cylinder lubrication needed by these engines, nor do they counter some of the extreme combustion products and soot produced by this engine.
,
The best plan of attack is to use an oil that was designed to combat fuel dilution and it's effects, while also having superior cleaning properties. At the same time providing additional support for the fuel with mild additives that work in synergy with the oil. For this I would recommend the oil that I had custom formulated for the RS4 engine by Terry Dyson of Dyson Analysis, and Bill Garmier of Renewable Lubricants, the RLI Biosynthetic 5W40 HD oil, along with the Renewable lubricants BioPlus fuel additive. This oil is one of the most advanced oils commercial available on the market today.

Strong full-strength products like Techron, Redline, BG44K and Amsoil fuel additives should not be used, as they have extremely strong cleaning compounds that will cause bearing damage to soft metal bearings when the inevitably find their way into the fuel. The additional BioPlus fuel additive is compatible with the Biosyn oil and is "nice" to the bearings. In addition, it will help support good cleaning of the injectors. The injectors are also bombarded and obstructed by valve deposits the happen to break loose.

http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/Bio-Sy ... %20Oil.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/2I-Bio ... tioner.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/order.htm

Would be cool to get a group buy on this sort of thing.

[cit1991]

http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/Bio-Sy ... %20Oil.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/2I-Bio ... tioner.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/order.htm

That oil has no tested certifications including VW 502 or 504...not even API SA.

[Andyuk911]

Lubro Moly makes a similar product called Ventil Sauber. You suck it into the manifold under idle. Let it stall...soak, then run.

For the UK ppl, info below

http://www.liquimoly-direct.co.uk/useri ... nation.pdf

The PDF says add to fuel .. but clearly would not help if used this way on the RS4

[Andyuk911]

Interesting vid .. shows the vanes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZXyHp9cPk

[RI_RS4]

http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/Bio-Sy ... %20Oil.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/2I-Bio ... tioner.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/order.htm

That oil has no tested certifications including VW 502 or 504...not even API SA.

Correct. Audi/VW certification costs about $250K-$300K to perform, which limits it to big oil with big budgets. RLI is a small company that has an amazing state-of-the-art patented lubrication technology. I personally had the Biosyn 5W40 oil custom formulated 2 years ago under the direction and consulting of Terry Dyson, an independent Tribologist, who has been practicing for 30 years. It is designed to provide a better ring seal, to slow the onset of fuel dilution, reduce the impact of fuel dilution on the engine wear, increase the useful oil life and wear performance with an advanced antimony/copper additive package, and provide enhanced cleaning with it's combination of PAO and bio-ester base oils.

(Based on our oil analysis work and research on the RS4 engine, Terry and I predicted these FSI valve deposit - and other- problems 2 years ago. This is why I embarked on an expensive proposition to have the best oil possible formulated specifically for this engine. I allowed it to be released as a standard RLI product as a service to the Audi community.)

The oil has seen service in the RS4 and other Audi FSI engines for 2 years now, under road and track conditions. It was designed to perform significantly better than factory approved oils, under the extreme fuel dilution conditions that FSI direct injection places on the oil, though it's formulation and advanced additive technology. Thus far, it has outperformed all Audi approved oils, based on over 100 oil analysis records in over 20 engines.

What is being seen as oil deposits on the valves is a result of chemical attack of the oil by the fuel, causing poor ring seal, high oil volatility, and decreased boundary tribological layer protection of the cams and cam chains. Cleaning of the valves and providing an alternative method of crankcase venting and capture, only deal with the symptoms, not the root causes.

Just take a look at the valve deposit photos in this thread to see how well 502 or 504 oils are working for you.

[PetrolDave]

http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/Bio-Sy ... %20Oil.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/2I-Bio ... tioner.pdf
http://www.renewablelube.com/order.htm

That oil has no tested certifications including VW 502 or 504...not even API SA.

Correct.

Just take a look at the valve deposit photos in this thread to see how well 502 or 504 oils are working for you.

If you have a deep enough pocket to pay the bills when Audi say that a new engine is not covered under warranty then good luck to you. Personally I'd rather stick with VAG approved oils - even if it means Audi get a big bill. At least they'll get the bill and I won't.

[Andyuk911]

Any chemist about ..

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 112AAlNC5z

[pippyrips]

That oil has no tested certifications including VW 502 or 504...not even API SA.

Correct.

Just take a look at the valve deposit photos in this thread to see how well 502 or 504 oils are working for you.

If you have a deep enough pocket to pay the bills when Audi say that a new engine is not covered under warranty then good luck to you. Personally I'd rather stick with VAG approved oils - even if it means Audi get a big bill. At least they'll get the bill and I won't.

As with anything it comes down to cost vs. benefit.

Some of us will already be outside of warranty now and the rest of fast approaching.

Unless you extend the Audi warranty, shortly it won't matter whether we run the car on VAG approved oil or not as once outside of warranty they won't cover anyway.

If you only plan on keep the car for a short period of time then this won't be worthwhile but for those who view the RS as a keeper, it might not be a bad thing...

What I would like to know is after how many miles is the vag approved oil breaking down thus increasing the risk of internal foul-up?

Is it as simple as making sure we change the oil under this amount of miles or is vag oil breaking down so quickly we would need to change it every other week?!

[SR71]

Rob,

If you check RI_RS4's original posts on the issue back in late 2007, you'll see evidence of flashpoints being reduced to super low levels even after 2000 miles in the car: http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=PNp ... hlight=oil Stacks up if Caldy's deposits are the result of only ~3000 miles...

The mechanism is outlined by him - correct me if I'm wrong but crude summary is: lousy oil leads to, increased fuel dilution, leads to low oil flashpoint, leads to increased volatility, leads to increased deposits in the intake...

A couple of things we don't know are:

1) Whether cars running on Fuchs Titan are in a better state? RI_RS4 at the time said he liked the look of Titan Fuchs which wasn't available in the USA at the time because of its "super base chemistry"...

2) What the difference is with Euro cars running in stratified lean burn mode? None by the look of Caldy's car!

I still think that while a better oil is addressing the root issue, disconnecting the crankcase re-breather lines and venting to ambient is going to be the best solution...regardless of whether or not you need a vacuum pump on that line, based on deposits we're seeing, you can't afford to have that "dirty" air gumming up the inlet of a performance vehicle.

[PetrolDave]

Since this problem is also being seen on the 2.0TFSI engines and they've been around longer and done more miles maybe it's worth seeing if it's actually leading to engine problems with the 2.0TFSI?

It looks really bad, but if it's not reducing compression or severly reducing airflow into the engine then is it a real problem? What I'm asking is - is this more than cosmetic?

[silverRS4]

At 8,000 miles, the buildup on my valves was approximately 70% of what you see on the 2.0TFSI photo. After the dealer cleaned my valves, my mass airflow improved upwards of 10% (you've referred to that graph yourself PetrolDave!) and my 1/4 mile trap speed increased 4 mph. So I believe crudded up valves does impact performance.

[PetrolDave]

At 8,000 miles, the buildup on my valves was approximately 70% of what you see on the 2.0TFSI photo. After the dealer cleaned my valves, my mass airflow improved upwards of 10% (you've referred to that graph yourself PetrolDave!) and my 1/4 mile trap speed increased 4 mph. So I believe crudded up valves does impact performance.

That's the data I wanted to hear - so there IS a performance issue.

My remaining concern is what happens to this krud. If a big chunk comes off and gets injested into a cylinder that doesn't feel a good thing to happen! If we use chemicals to soften it do we run the risk of causing some serious internal damage to the engine?

[silverRS4]

So Mitsubishi dealers are stocked up on Winn's and US VW/Audi dealers are stocked up on Seafoam. Lets assume the GDI/FSI engines they are treating have valves that look something like the 2.0TFSI photo. Its apparently a somewhat effective treatment with no adverse affects, so the chemical must greatly soften/dissolve the buildup. I know the Audi treatment also includes a very aggresive fuel system cleaner as well. Maybe that is to clean the injectors after the crud washes into the cylinders. The instances when the dealer doesn't do a chemical spray clean and just cleans the valves by hand is when the manifold is off for some other reason. With RS4's, faulty intake flaps necessitated manifold swaps, and thats when the cruddy valves were discovered.

[RI_RS4]

Silver, contact me.