RS7 APR Reflash....

4.0 V8 40v biturbo TFSI - 552 bhp
4.0 V8 40v biturbo TFSI - 597 bhp (Performance)
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by VARSITY » Thu May 08, 2014 10:36 am

I'm now giving up.

Its a bottle of Garrison Brothers Bourbon for me, then I am going to post what I really think!!
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by VARSITY » Thu May 08, 2014 10:49 am

sakimano wrote:
VARSITY wrote:Whilst away in Germany at the weekend, I visited a few friends at Raeder, Frikadeli, Black Falcon and Capricorn and surprise, they all have dynos.

So, why aren't they using the A61 Koln to Koblenz Autobahn or doing it on the Bitburg 026 runway and a VBox instead? Surely they are doing it all wrong then?

Cheers
Have you listened to NOTHING I have posted in this thread?

I did not say the dyno has no use. Certainly tuners can use it for their development. My favourite tuning company JHM uses the dyno.

So to recap for you, I said the dyno is a dangerous marketing tool because:

1. it can be manipulated to tell the market whatever the operator wants it to thus enables unsavoury companies to operate with impunity in the marketplace
2. it doesn't reflect how a car accelerates in the real world...it reflects how it performs in one gear on a loaded up dyno

If you want to refute those statements, the crux of my argument for this entire thread, I welcome it.

Remember, I initially brought up the ridiculousness of using dyno numbers to compare because a guy in the UK was comparing MRC's RS7 dyno numbers to APR's RS7 dyno numbers. That's when I mentioned my preference for a standardized acceleration test, be it a certified dragstrip or a PBOX etc. But to compare one companies dyno result to another company's result using two completely different types of dynos is INSANE. Hell, to use two of the exact same model is insane because of the number of operator adjustable parameters.
You really are an arrogant prick.

Manipulation of mapping, for short use to enable higher than stable or acceptable outputs for the sake of marketing is something we know exists.

Its a known that when many high performance cars are delivered to Auto Journalists they are not in 'std' form, or are you that wet behind the ears?

Do you seriously believe that all tuners are equal, that all dynos are equal and more importantly that on the day of the VBox or 1/4 mile that the temps, track and drivers are all the same?

My original gripe with you is that the dyno is a good way of measuring the gains on a car as it is tuned, not the final figure or the performance.

I cannot believe any tuner does the FMIC then goes to a 1/4 mile, comes back and then changes the exhaust, goes back to the track and so on.

This could go on for days as you listen as much as my dog does, at least he can lick his balls and is useful.

Now do as the others suggested and fu6k off to somewhere else.
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by sakimano » Thu May 08, 2014 12:32 pm

Now you think I'm saying tuners don't use a dyno in product development and only use a dragstrip...that i think all dyno are equal...and you're on about magazine testing (really?) and all sorts, and throwing a tantrum, calling names. You really are terrible at this. RTFS for once.

To sum up varsity in this thread

1. He thought I was slagging mrc so he had a little fit

2. When I made it clear I wasn't (took 3 attempts because he's not so quick) he then wanted me to say something bad about another Sponsor so I'd get in trouble with the headmaster

3. When I saw through that, and still provided examples on this site and others of why the dyno is a bullsh1t marketing tool with a history of fraud, he ignored the examples talked about how he is a star for suing audi. Guess he needed to pat himself on the back

4. Now he's on about everything but the (off)topic at hand and is saying everyone here knew all along that the dyno marketing is bullshyte (well why the fuk are you arguing with me and why don't you demand something more from the tuners , as I'm advocating)

5. Lots of misquoted along the way...it's like he can't read

6. He and bumbum are life partners of some sort that leads him to respond to posts addressed to bam, and to speak of them as 'us'.

All around pretty much a useless discussion where varsity was involved. At least bam taught us about official country qualification standards.

P. S. re magazines, maybe audi is honest. ironically no magazine ever posted a faster 1/4 mile time than my stock B7 RS4 of 12.75@108.36 mph . I also have never seen an audi post a time in a magazine that wasn't matched or beaten by a customer or tuner in stock form.

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by VARSITY » Thu May 08, 2014 4:59 pm

To reply to your bullying comments Saki.

1. Not at all, but you did site them only.
2. I want you to stand behind your claims, that way we aren't just hearing noise, its facts and we can agree or act on them.
3. You cited one example, but you claim more, where are they. I used my own experience of how a dyno can assist in proving power gains and losses.
4. I said dyno can be used negatively just as 1/4 mile times can be.
5. I can assure you I can read thanks.
6. Are you jealous I have friends? or just homophobic?

Your PS. I am not sure of what the point is in your last comment.

I do hope we get the opportunity of meeting one day,

Cheers
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by VARSITY » Thu May 08, 2014 5:03 pm

So, in one last attempt to get this straight,

Tell me or others, who has lied, other than PES about their tuning by way of dyno plots/charts in the Audi arena.

You can't make broad strokes about tuners without being able to name who they are.

If you cant, I think thats an end to this, if you can and will then maybe its a debate to be had.

Cheers
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by sakimano » Thu May 08, 2014 5:43 pm

VARSITY wrote:So, in one last attempt to get this straight,

Tell me or others, who has lied, other than PES about their tuning by way of dyno plots/charts in the Audi arena.

You can't make broad strokes about tuners without being able to name who they are.

If you cant, I think thats an end to this, if you can and will then maybe its a debate to be had.

Cheers
You failed once at this. Trying again?

This isn't the end of anything. If you don't know what tuners have a history of presenting bullshyte done information to push products, that's your problem. Although earlier today you claimed this was common knowledge, so make up your mind.

Once again, for my slow friend varsity, I don't care who is a dyno scammed and who isn't because I don't buy products based on dyno results. I understand how dynos work, and as a result I know that

1. It's too easily manipulable, maliciously, to be trusted

2. It doesn't show acceleration.. It shows a loaded up test with almost zero real world relevance.

I have seen honest guys dyno honest cars on honest dynos, and then watched them lose races to cars making considerably less power. Why? Dyno power does not give an accurate depiction of how a car accelerates. You buy power mods to accelerate faster, yes? So why not test acceleration or demand acceleration testing from the tuners?

For example the APR RS4 TVSr1320 supercharger kit dynod fantastic. About 500-525 ps (430 whp). Great result vs 420 ps (or whatever) or 320 whp stock.

In acceleration testing it wasn't so good. Half a dozen guys bought the kit and went mid to high 12s at 108-110 mph. Aka similar to a stock rs4 or one with just an exhaust like my car.

Why? The dyno said it was great? Apr is honest. Customers verified the dyno claims on third party dynos. So what's up?

Because a dyno doesn't depict the real world.

The tune had problems with driving dynamics. Sure it moved cfm and made power in one gear on a cooled, loaded up dyno. But when you took the car through the gears, it flopped. In Australia it flopped. In Europe it flopped. In America it flopped.

So Apr reached out to JHM who developed a new calibration from the ground up. The car immediately went 11.8@117 mph . Then another did. And another. In pull terms, the JHM tune created a gap on the APR calibration of 8 or 9 cars through four gears with nominal power differences. Why?

The tune had some problems that wouldn't show up on a dyno. Simple. Only once the cars hit the pavement did the problem reveal itself.

But hey... Enjoy your dynos!

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by bam_bam » Thu May 08, 2014 8:24 pm

Oh I love my dyno sheets. There they are, right next to pictures of lady_bam and baby_bam in my wallet.

The real thing is; no one here cares about 1/4 mile times (bar you and maybe Danny). It's great that some tuners back their dyno claim with a 1/4 time but it's very rarely questioned. Until the customers  buying tuners output start understanding quarters, what they mean or experience them first-hand. It's of no interest. No one down the pub asks what your car traps at, they just want to know how much power it has, or how much quicker to 60MPH it is than a Nine Eleven. If you spat beer everywhere in disgust after someone asked you what your car dyno'd at, you'd drink alone. If fact, talking about quarters would have you sat in the corner next to a leper and a <beep> in my local.
A massive sea-change would be required to bring 1/4 mile times into the lexicon of average European car enthusiasts. And when it happens, some guy called Mark or Craig or Simon will be responsible, and they'll be the real heroes because they read "How to win friends and influence people", they'll use Facebook and Twatter and sexy girls to make their point. And you? You'll be forgotten all-together or vaguely remembered as some Canadian that no one understood while he flogged a dead horse everywhere he went.‎

So why don't you follow APR's lead and change your tune, try a different angle, it worked for Arthur, but then, he is quiet smart.
It pains me to see you smashing your head against the dyno room wall, it's ugly now, it was a little amusing‎ and entertaining at the start but now... well, it just lowers everyone's IQ.

Do us all a favour and put your car on a dyno, as a peace offering, like. That way, when you say your car covers the quarter in XX.xx@XXX‎, we look at your dyno and then nod like we understand what that means, and we're all friends again. Or not, I don't really care.
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by Golfather » Fri May 09, 2014 12:39 am

Nothing wrong with 1/4 mile times tbh.

Back in the day at GTi Inters, people ran their cars on the strip to see what they could achieve, and it proved to be a good way of comparing how fast your car actually was as compared to others, esp some mad conversions such as twin turbod VR MK1.

Sometimes dyno numbers can be meaningless. eg a 750bhp Stage 2 C6 vs a 850bhp C6 with hybrids, yes theres circa 100bhp difference but what does that actually translate to on the open road and what does the extra £10k net me?

1/4 mile can give you that comparison, or to go one step further, VBOX measurements.
Most tuners including MRC now have VBOX screenshots along with their dyno printouts. Which solves this debate.

PS:

Image

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by bam_bam » Fri May 09, 2014 12:51 am

Golfather wrote:Nothing wrong with 1/4 mile times tbh.
Back in the day at GTi Inters, people ran their cars on the strip to see what they could achieve, and it proved to be a good way of comparing how fast your car actually was as compared to others, esp some mad conversions such as twin turbod VR MK1.
Sometimes dyno numbers can be meaningless. eg a 750bhp Stage 2 C6 vs a 850bhp C6 with hybrids, yes theres circa 100bhp difference but what does that actually translate to on the open road and what does the extra £10k net me?
1/4 mile can give you that comparison, or to go one step further, VBOX measurements.
Most tuners including MRC now have VBOX screenshots along with their dyno printouts. Which solves this debate.
+1.
I'm not against it but when it's not understood nor part of the interchangeable terminology, why try to make it king of the performance test. <beep> that sh1t in half! One day, I'll 'drag' my lardy wagon to Santa Pod and botch a few runs then I'll have no one to tell about it. However, flash anyone a pretty graph, well...
So, Golf, when you got your C6 stage two'd, did you save the dyno output to file or did you run on over to the 'Pod and try to debunk your tuners claims?
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by sakimano » Fri May 09, 2014 12:57 am

bam_bam wrote:.............

I must have said, a dozen times

1. I said acceleration testing. There are many ways to do this. Verified Pbox file is fine. 1/4 mile is best and easy in the uk/Europe.

2. I don't want you or any customer to take your car to the 1/4 Mile and talk about it at the pub. I want the tuners to do it. That's it.

It's amazing the flak you guys are giving me for making a suggestion on how to improve the standard of proof for performance products for our cars. You'd think I was suggesting burning down an orphanage.
Last edited by sakimano on Fri May 09, 2014 1:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by sakimano » Fri May 09, 2014 12:59 am

Golfather wrote:Nothing wrong with 1/4 mile times tbh.

Back in the day at GTi Inters, people ran their cars on the strip to see what they could achieve, and it proved to be a good way of comparing how fast your car actually was as compared to others, esp some mad conversions such as twin turbod VR MK1.

Sometimes dyno numbers can be meaningless. eg a 750bhp Stage 2 C6 vs a 850bhp C6 with hybrids, yes theres circa 100bhp difference but what does that actually translate to on the open road and what does the extra £10k net me?

1/4 mile can give you that comparison, or to go one step further, VBOX measurements.
Most tuners including MRC now have VBOX screenshots along with their dyno printouts. Which solves this debate.
BLASPHEMY!

VOTE TO BAN!

:)

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by bam_bam » Fri May 09, 2014 1:12 am

sakimano wrote:
bam_bam wrote:.............

I must have said,  a dozen times 

1.  I said acceleration testing.   There are many ways to do this.   Verified Pbox file  is fine.   1/4 mile is best and easy in the uk/Europe. 

2. I don't want you or any customer to take your car to the 1/4 Mile and talk about it at the pub.    I want the tuners to do it.  That's it. 

It's amazing the flak you guys are giving me for making a suggestion on how to improve the sea days of proof for products for our cars.   You'd think I was suggesting burning down an orphanage.
Now you're burning orphans! You disgust me.

1. But everyone catalogues information differently. So, when someone says it dynos at 335HP, I know that at that weight the power ratio is X-ish. Ergo, I know it's a very handly car, comparable to a Nine Eleven. When someone says it quarters @... I'm already glazed over. So if a tuner does it, or a well big 'Ard big geezer does it, the quarter still don't matter.

2. Almost zero people do, and any tuner ‎worth their weight  have gone to the strip... but are we quoting their quarter times... nope. We refer to the dyno, is that killing you enough???

Your suggestions were duly noted sixteen elevenisty billion posts ago, but hang in there, we may just give up the will to live yet.
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by Golfather » Fri May 09, 2014 1:24 am

bam_bam wrote: So, Golf, when you got your C6 stage two'd, did you save the dyno output to file or did you run on over to the 'Pod and try to debunk your tuners claims?
No mate the freshly ground brown skidmarks on my way home were sufficient enough for me not to go back to Doug and ask for a refund.
That, and the obliteration of a number of RS's up the A1 was good enough for me ;) :thumbs:

Although I did leave the graph in the boot of the car... whilst it was booked in for some warranty work at the stealers :shock: :lol: :bash:
Funnily enough the stealer did not enter into a 11 page lengthy debate refuting the claims of my tuner either...But instead made comparisons of my torque curve to a Bugatti Veyron!

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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by VARSITY » Fri May 09, 2014 6:18 am

sakimano wrote:
bam_bam wrote:.............

I must have said, a dozen times

1. I said acceleration testing. There are many ways to do this. Verified Pbox file is fine. 1/4 mile is best and easy in the uk/Europe.

2. I don't want you or any customer to take your car to the 1/4 Mile and talk about it at the pub. I want the tuners to do it. That's it.

It's amazing the flak you guys are giving me for making a suggestion on how to improve the standard of proof for performance products for our cars. You'd think I was suggesting burning down an orphanage.
I am still at a loss as to how 1/4 mile times are proof of anything more unless you benchmark them against std, which is no different to using a dyno.

Cheers
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Re: RS7 APR Reflash....

Post by VARSITY » Fri May 09, 2014 6:20 am

I will borrow a friends RS6 and get the VBox out and see what the results are this weekend as a curiosity.

Although I think we need an external arial?

Cheers
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