C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

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C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Sat May 26, 2012 9:34 pm

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by Mr V10 » Sat May 26, 2012 10:28 pm

:thumbs:

The S6 isn't even a direct rival to the AMG and M, the RS6 will blow them away further. :thumbs:
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by adsgreen » Sun May 27, 2012 9:53 am

Hmmm - points won mainly on price and interior styling?

Granted, the s6 held up well as it was never going to be dynamically a serious competitor to the m5 and amg but I'd rather have the m5

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Sun May 27, 2012 3:13 pm

20% price difference
quattro
a better daily driver, overall car

there are many factors involved in buying a car, looks, function, cost, etc. all factor in with absolute performance
what is the ratio of just driving vs 10/10ths? 100:1 ?

the RS6 will close the performance gap
if they can couple the S8 engine with the DCT (as opposed to the tru auto) and shed a few hundred pounts it will be a beast
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by adsgreen » Sun May 27, 2012 3:24 pm

But that's my point- to compare cars like this and decide the winner is the slower, less dynamic cheaper car becsuse tge interior is bolted together better doesn't make sense too me. Would have been a better comparison of the s6 vs the 5 series 550i - both twin turbo v8's, similar price and power and both tuned more for comfort.

You either decide your reviewing performance or day to day practicality first.

If you're buying or looking to buy an m5 then you are already compromising day to day practicality and price would also be secondary. Just see it as a 'null' review really.

Agree on the rs6 - I'd expect that to get the full s8 engine and as long as the dct can take it then yup - beast car.
Would rather pay an excess to get that than the new rs4

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Sun May 27, 2012 4:35 pm

adsgreen wrote:But that's my point- to compare cars like this and decide the winner is the slower, less dynamic cheaper car becsuse tge interior is bolted together better doesn't make sense too me. Would have been a better comparison of the s6 vs the 5 series 550i - both twin turbo v8's, similar price and power and both tuned more for comfort.

You either decide your reviewing performance or day to day practicality first.

If you're buying or looking to buy an m5 then you are already compromising day to day practicality and price would also be secondary. Just see it as a 'null' review really.

Agree on the rs6 - I'd expect that to get the full s8 engine and as long as the dct can take it then yup - beast car.
Would rather pay an excess to get that than the new rs4
it makes sense to those who aren't rolling in cash
to say money is never a factor is silly
$20,000 is a lot of money to me, maybe not to most

it doesn't have to be one or the other, absolute, performance or daily use, especially not for a daily driver road car
it can be both (and many others) weighted to draw an over-all picture/rating
honestly, that seems like the ONLY way to do it

another factor not weighted in the S6's advantage: quattro, for the 20% (or more) of the time weather is inclement or the roads have debris/dirt/etc.
if a daily driven road car this is a huge advantage, and in these conditions the S6 will be faster and safer...massive
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by adsgreen » Sun May 27, 2012 9:56 pm

I don't have a problem with picking a cheaper car - but somebody who is looking at an m5 (you would hope) is looking more at a performance and driving experience.

Otherwise why do we have rs4's when a b8 s4 is pretty much just as quick and cheaper?

The issue with he weighting of the review is that everybody is different. Some will sacrifice day to say for performance, others want an armchair. To say the s6 is overall better than the m5 and amg is frankly funny as the other cars were both rated better drivers cars yet the reviewer doesn't think that's as important as a nice interior. Maybe to him but not to others.

To think you can reduce this to a Single number is a bit, well, comical.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Sun May 27, 2012 10:10 pm

adsgreen wrote:I don't have a problem with picking a cheaper car - but somebody who is looking at an m5 (you would hope) is looking more at a performance and driving experience.

Otherwise why do we have rs4's when a b8 s4 is pretty much just as quick and cheaper?

The issue with he weighting of the review is that everybody is different. Some will sacrifice day to say for performance, others want an armchair. To say the s6 is overall better than the m5 and amg is frankly funny as the other cars were both rated better drivers cars yet the reviewer doesn't think that's as important as a nice interior. Maybe to him but not to others.

To think you can reduce this to a Single number is a bit, well, comical.
4 years of college is reduced to a single number QPA

everybody will weight things differently

if performance is paramount, the Gtr > M5
if you want all weather every day driver S6 > M5
if you want uber fast 4 door and have an alternative for foul weather, perhaps M5

they actually have 4 catagories and give the raw performance numbers, so the reader can weight them to his priorities

a lot of people will choose the S6 (and AMG) over the M5
they will be knowledgeable enthusiests, and it is arrogent to think we know more than them, and that they made the 'wrong' choice
there is no wrong 'choice', it is 'their' choice

appearance and design does factor in, as do ergonomics, perhaps sacrificing some performance used 5% of the time for things used 100% of the time makes sense to some?
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by adsgreen » Mon May 28, 2012 8:01 am

I thought we were talking cars not academia? ;)
I don't see the m5 and gtr as in the same class... Might as well say super bike > gtr

Your point about 'their' choice was my point. Which is what makes it quite a pointless exercise to go into these details and declare a 'winner'.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Mon May 28, 2012 7:19 pm

adsgreen wrote:But that's my point- to compare cars like this and decide the winner is the slower, less dynamic cheaper car becsuse tge interior is bolted together better doesn't make sense too me. Would have been a better comparison of the s6 vs the 5 series 550i - both twin turbo v8's, similar price and power and both tuned more for comfort.

Agree on the rs6 - I'd expect that to get the full s8 engine and as long as the dct can take it then yup - beast car.
Would rather pay an excess to get that than the new rs4
yes, the 'win' was a hollow one considering it was 5 points alone on price (but without those points it was still only a point behind the M5 and still beat the E63)

To say the interior doesn't matter is a bit much. These aren't R8 vs. SLS tests...these are businessman's autobahn stormers, and the interior is a big component of the car. 90% of the time these cars will be driven civilly and sedately, and in those instances, sitting on excellent seats with a great interior and features that work well is certainly important.

Further, the comments in the article do not say the A6 was the worst car, dynamically. In fact it says it was one of the best at most tasks, and all around it was the best of the three, price or no price.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Mon May 28, 2012 7:37 pm

adsgreen wrote:I thought we were talking cars not academia? ;)
I don't see the m5 and gtr as in the same class... Might as well say super bike > gtr

Your point about 'their' choice was my point. Which is what makes it quite a pointless exercise to go into these details and declare a 'winner'.
you also just said that the M5 and the S6 aren't in the same class, so...?

There are 2 reasons car and driver did this article

1. the US market, where car and driver sells 95% of their subscriptions, will likely never see the RS6, so the S6 is the top Audi in this medium-large sport sedan range.

2. even though this isn't Audi's top gun in the 194" range, it's keeping up quite nicely with the Benz and BMW and after their first drive in the car where their casually instrumented tests showed that the two things American readers value most as far as performance goes (0-60mph and 1/4 mile time) put the car right beside the top end M5 and AMG E63, they thought it would be a compelling article.

The C&D guys would choose the M5...however the facts show that there's a strong case to be made for the S6 even though it's seriously outgunned.

p.s. if you think people buy the M5...a 4000 lb 193" long sedan...for the dynamics, you're going to have to re-think that. There's an M3 for dynamics. Further, if you spend some time in the new M5 (I have), you realise this isn't the E39 you had a ride in 10 years ago...this thing is a BOAT and it's more about soft and cushy than a hardcore handler. In fact for perspective, the F10 M5 is only 5" shorter than the D2-D3 A8 (198"). The B7 RS4 and E90 M3 are 181".

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by adsgreen » Mon May 28, 2012 8:08 pm

A 4 door saloon is never going to be as good to handle as a lighter 2 door coupe.
It's all a compromise.

It's all relative and there isn't anything current with 4 doors that will really "handle". However the M5 and AMG whilst porky and bigger are both excellent to drive "briskly".

My issue with it is that whilst an amusing distraction it's a bit of a curve ball review. Sure, if the RS6 sin't going across the pond then fine it does make a little more sense. I just found the balance of the review a little too much towards comfort, price and nice interiors which are not what the M5 and AMG (to a lesser extent) are really about.

And yes I have driven the M5 and had a blast on track with it (wrecked a set of new rears which didn't go down well). But it sure as hell aint a car that'll see many trackdays.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Mon May 28, 2012 8:19 pm

adsgreen wrote:I thought we were talking cars not academia? ;)
I don't see the m5 and gtr as in the same class... Might as well say super bike > gtr

Your point about 'their' choice was my point. Which is what makes it quite a pointless exercise to go into these details and declare a 'winner'.
both are cars, not car vs motorcycle
both ~ same price
wt is within 10%
mpg is similar
both very fast

it wasn't your point, your point was that the eval was pointless and worthless
I said it gave measured numbers and subjctive ranking in various catagories for interpretation/analysis by the reader
he can prioritize or dismiss as HE sees fit, you dismiss as useless, and say those that do not, are not as enlightened as you, they are being 'fooled' or something

then there would be no need to ever evaluate anything and try to rank them, unless obviously it was you doing the ranking, as in you declaring this analysis/test/report being useless, and no one can consider it useful, and if they do, they don't know as much as you
foolish & arrogent
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by adsgreen » Tue May 29, 2012 7:51 am

Oh Ffs - can we please stop this personal attack nonsense.
I'm not calling people fools, I'm not being arrogant I was purely putting my opinion (which in the land of the 'Free' appears to not be allowed) that I didn't think the review was particularly balanced appropriately given the cars picked.

Don't put words or opinions as mine - that is far more arrogant.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by P_G » Tue May 29, 2012 10:36 am

Ask Audi which cars they would pitch the S6 and S7 against and it is not the M5, E63 and GT-R. S6 is 550i / E500 / Jag XF V8; S7 if anyone is CLS 500 / possibly basic Panamera

That's is my perpsective on how pointless that test is.

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