C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 9:06 pm

ArthurPE wrote:RS4 has 2 shifts per 1/4 mile
2-3 and 3-4, you launch in 1st so 0.4 to 0.6 under no power, but still moving!, probably cost a fraction of that in ET, a few tenths at most

the S6 has 3 changes, or 0.3 sec of dead time, or 0.15 less than the avg RS4, and only a fraction of that will show up in the ET

I saw a RS5 time, same engine as the RS4 (more power, same torque), 7 speed DCT and same weight, C&D(?) got 12.5 http://media.caranddriver.com/files/201 ... ts-v-2.pdf
RS4's have pulled 12.8's, so 3 tenths not counting the wider torque band

Motor Trend
We developed a work-around and measured a 0-60 time of 4.3 seconds and a quarter-mile run at 12.8 sec at 108.2 mph.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sed ... z1wNw93lYA
so the DCT did not give it much of an advantage

avg of 12.65 vs 12.8 and it had a better wt dist, wider power band, better diff system, and 20 mm wider tires
huh? RS4 has 1-2, 2-3, 3-4.

Three shifts.

p.s. don't forget 1 RS4 went 12.75 bone stock...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2zYzRiNDnk

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Wed May 30, 2012 9:09 pm

if you extrapolate the line BEFORE the shift, as if there was none, the difference at 90 mph is ~0.1 sec
so for 2 shifts it costs 0.2 sec of progress
even if the DCT is 1/2 that for 3 shifts it's only 0.1 sec difference over the 1/4 mile

sakimano wrote:
adsgreen wrote:I can believe the trap speed - it's the same power as the RS4 with <beep> load torque and near zero shift times plus launch control and only slightly heavier (IIRC).
check this out...here's a reasonably well driven B7 RS4 with manual transmission. Not flatfoot (no lift) shifting by any means....but a good driver shifting briskly. I've seen some videos of this guy driving and he's solid. About 0.3 seconds per shift. Maybe 0.4. That's decent.

Image


Now here's a DSG B8 S4 driven by an 18 year old kid. Find me the shifts lol. It's amazing. Still...it's boring unfortunately...but very effective.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Wed May 30, 2012 9:13 pm

sakimano wrote:
ArthurPE wrote:RS4 has 2 shifts per 1/4 mile
2-3 and 3-4, you launch in 1st so 0.4 to 0.6 under no power, but still moving!, probably cost a fraction of that in ET, a few tenths at most

the S6 has 3 changes, or 0.3 sec of dead time, or 0.15 less than the avg RS4, and only a fraction of that will show up in the ET

I saw a RS5 time, same engine as the RS4 (more power, same torque), 7 speed DCT and same weight, C&D(?) got 12.5 http://media.caranddriver.com/files/201 ... ts-v-2.pdf
RS4's have pulled 12.8's, so 3 tenths not counting the wider torque band

Motor Trend
We developed a work-around and measured a 0-60 time of 4.3 seconds and a quarter-mile run at 12.8 sec at 108.2 mph.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sed ... z1wNw93lYA
so the DCT did not give it much of an advantage

avg of 12.65 vs 12.8 and it had a better wt dist, wider power band, better diff system, and 20 mm wider tires
huh? RS4 has 1-2, 2-3, 3-4.

Three shifts.

p.s. don't forget 1 RS4 went 12.75 bone stock...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2zYzRiNDnk
that's right, 3 shifts, same as the S6
either way, a few tenths at best
the RS5 has a higher Fd 4.38 (very high) vs 4.11, ~7% torque multiplying advantage
S6 = ? (edit 4.08, very close to the RS4)
Last edited by ArthurPE on Wed May 30, 2012 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by JCviggen » Wed May 30, 2012 9:15 pm

All the ones I found were 111-112 but anyway...let's keep it in house and look at an RS5?

444 vs 414bhp (450/420ps) similar gearbox and drivetrain, certainly a lot less weight to carry around!

12.5 @ 112mph (left column)

Image

Then again it's still way, way quicker than the RS5 at motortrend so who knows what's real these days?
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 9:15 pm

D_K wrote:
sakimano wrote:
D_K wrote:are you sure it launches at 5k?

the TTRS launches at 3.5k
yes

the B8 S4 launches at 3.5 k.

the RS5 launches at 5.5 k.

the RS4 launches at 5.5 k.
yes but the RS 4 and RS 5 are NA and the S4 and TTRS are FI
not sure that matters. He asked what RPM the S6 launches at using the launch control program.
TEST NOTES: Launch control is activated in D sport with ESC off. Just stomp the gas with the brake, and it zings to 5000 rpm; lift, and it moves out.
5k rpm they said...but I'd like to see the needle to be sure as I was told 5.5k.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Wed May 30, 2012 9:16 pm

JCviggen wrote:All the ones I found were 111-112 but anyway...let's keep it in house and look at an RS5?

444 vs 414bhp (450/420ps) similar gearbox and drivetrain, certainly a lot less weight to carry around!

12.5 @ 112mph (left column)

Image
Motor Trend
We developed a work-around and measured a 0-60 time of 4.3 seconds and a quarter-mile run at 12.8 sec at 108.2 mph.
Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sed ... z1wNw93lYA
so the DCT did not give it much of an advantage

12.8/108, same as a well driven RS4
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 9:19 pm

ArthurPE wrote:the RS5 has a higher Fd 4.38 (very high) vs 4.11, ~7% torque multiplying advantage
S6 = ?
good point. 4.09 I believe

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by Mr V10 » Wed May 30, 2012 9:20 pm

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 9:21 pm

JCviggen wrote:All the ones I found were 111-112 but anyway...let's keep it in house and look at an RS5?

444 vs 414bhp (450/420ps) similar gearbox and drivetrain, certainly a lot less weight to carry around!

12.5 @ 112mph (left column)


Then again it's still way, way quicker than the RS5 at motortrend so who knows what's real these days?
actually the RS5 weighs just about 4000 lbs on the number vs. 4250 for the S6. Not too crazy.

I don't quite get what you're asking anymore anyway?

We've looked at the torque curve. We've looked at area under the HP curve. THe S6 monsters the RS4/RS5 in both metrics up until the S6 is artificially reigned back in by boost control in the ECU calibration at 6000 RPM. From 0-6000 RPM the S6 is behaving like a 500 hp/430tq car...thus it certainly should leave those cars behind.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 9:29 pm

adsgreen wrote:Saks - where do you get the figures from?
When I shift from 1st to 2nd in the rs4 I don't drop anywhere near 4.5k... that'd be like shifting about 7k rpm by my calc?
I reckon it'd be about 5k?

I don't think comparing 2nd gear engagement rpm is that useful without showing the roadspeed and gear ratios.
If we assume (which isn't true) that 2nd gear engagement is at the same road speed for both cars then the torque of the s6 is completely killed by it needing a much longer gear than the RS4.
Its engine is only spinning at 3700rpm where as the rs4 is much higher. Higher rpm vs road speed means shorter gear.

If as I believe 2nd engagement on the rs4 is higher than 4.5k (just checked my car simulator and it shows 1st is good for 41mph so it would be about 5k into 2nd) then assuming same roadspeed the S6 would need a 2nd gear 1.35 times the length of the RS4. You could imagine this by having a rs4 gearbox with a longer final drive ratio. 430tq / 1.35 = 318tq when normalised through the gearbox differences.

edit: - Oi! cheat! ;-) youv'e got the s6 making 450 bhp!
of course I cheated...I want to reflect reality. As someone who was arguing hp over torque with Arthur, I think you'll want to agree with that...the numebrs look worse for you at 420 hp for the S6! :D

As for where I got the numbers, I got them from the car's gearing and MPH limits in each gear. (assuming you shift at 8000 which I don't but let's assume). We're just trying to get a look at the car pulling in a particular gear. I picked 2nd, but let's look at 3rd or 4th if you really want.

1st - 40
2nd - 66
3rd - 96
4th - 130
5th - 160
6th - 188

So at the top of 1st gear (40mph) you shift into second at 40mph. 2nd gear maxes at 66 mph so 8,000 RPM divided by 66 mph = 121 RPM per MPH. So at 40 mph = 4800 RPM. Factor in a little RPM/speed loss during the 0.3 second gear change, and you're right around the middle of 4th gear.
Last edited by sakimano on Wed May 30, 2012 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by ArthurPE » Wed May 30, 2012 9:30 pm

fuel spec for EC rating of engine power (Audi, BMW, etc use thisd method)
5.1.3.8.2. In the case of positive ignition engines, the fuel used must be a commercial fuel, without any supplementary additive. The fuel described in Annex VI to Council Directive 70/220/EEC of 20 March 1970 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to measures to be taken against air pollution by gases from positive-ignition engines of motor vehicles (2) as last amended by Directive 78/665/EEC (3), may also be used.

the power rating standard
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 269:en:NOT
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 9:41 pm

ArthurPE wrote:fuel spec for EC rating of engine power (Audi, BMW, etc use thisd method)
5.1.3.8.2. In the case of positive ignition engines, the fuel used must be a commercial fuel, without any supplementary additive. The fuel described in Annex VI to Council Directive 70/220/EEC of 20 March 1970 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to measures to be taken against air pollution by gases from positive-ignition engines of motor vehicles (2) as last amended by Directive 78/665/EEC (3), may also be used.

the power rating standard
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 269:en:NOT

Cole's notes/Cliff's notes? I searched octane and had no hits and gave up :D

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by JCviggen » Wed May 30, 2012 10:06 pm

sakimano wrote: We've looked at the torque curve. We've looked at area under the HP curve. THe S6 monsters the RS4/RS5 in both metrics up until the S6 is artificially reigned back in by boost control in the ECU calibration at 6000 RPM.
Could you post it? I didn't see it but it would be very interesting.
Don't forget that once you get out of first gear, the only rpm's on the power curve that matter are those near the top. After a shift it doesn't drop down to 2500, it'll be 4500-5000 at least (more in the case of the NA V8)
That's where the 60-130 time (and trap speed) come in to play, I fully understand how the torque is responsible for a great 0-60 and ET but it doesn't explain the others very well.

From 0-6000 RPM the S6 is behaving like a 500 hp/430tq car...
I don't think so. Until 4000rpm maybe.
My 2003 RS6 makes 450 bhp between 5700 and 6300 (stock) with 413 ft-lb tq from 1950-5600. (on a load dyno it crossed 420bhp at 4500rpm stock map but with gutted precats)
The only 500hp NA car that sprang to my mind is the chevy Z06 and that crosses 420hp at around 4500rpm.
But, back to the RS5, when you shift at max rpm it'll drop back to somewhere around 6500rpm. It'll reach 420 around 7200-7300rpm. for the next 1000rpm it'll be making more power than the S6. Let's say that it spends 1000rpm making slightly less power than the S6, and 1000rpm making slightly more. For all intents and purposes these engines (and their respective gearboxes) should deliver similar performance once the revs are up (2nd gear onwards)

The kerb weight I found for the RS5 was 3803 pounds, but it's somewhat unclear if the 4250 of the S6 includes a driver or not (the RS5 certainly doesn't)
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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by sakimano » Wed May 30, 2012 10:24 pm

JCviggen wrote:
sakimano wrote: We've looked at the torque curve. We've looked at area under the HP curve. THe S6 monsters the RS4/RS5 in both metrics up until the S6 is artificially reigned back in by boost control in the ECU calibration at 6000 RPM.
Could you post it? I didn't see it but it would be very interesting.
Don't forget that once you get out of first gear, the only rpm's on the power curve that matter are those near the top. After a shift it doesn't drop down to 2500, it'll be 4500-5000 at least (more in the case of the NA V8)
That's where the 60-130 time (and trap speed) come in to play, I fully understand how the torque is responsible for a great 0-60 and ET but it doesn't explain the others very well.

From 0-6000 RPM the S6 is behaving like a 500 hp/430tq car...
I don't think so. Until 4000rpm maybe.
My 2003 RS6 makes 450 bhp between 5700 and 6300 (stock) with 413 ft-lb tq from 1950-5600. (on a load dyno it crossed 420bhp at 4500rpm stock map but with gutted precats)
The only 500hp NA car that sprang to my mind is the chevy Z06 and that crosses 420hp at around 4500rpm.
But, back to the RS5, when you shift at max rpm it'll drop back to somewhere around 6500rpm. It'll reach 420 around 7200-7300rpm. for the next 1000rpm it'll be making more power than the S6. Let's say that it spends 1000rpm making slightly less power than the S6, and 1000rpm making slightly more. For all intents and purposes these engines (and their respective gearboxes) should deliver similar performance once the revs are up (2nd gear onwards)

The kerb weight I found for the RS5 was 3803 pounds, but it's somewhat unclear if the 4250 of the S6 includes a driver or not (the RS5 certainly doesn't)
I don't understand how you can say 'I don't think so' to the comment I made about the S6 torque curve/hp profile when you just admitted to never seeing it. I'm not saying it makes 500 hp at 6000 rpm. I am saying the tune cuts boost dramatically up above 5500 RPM. So the curve and work measured as area under the curve, is not indicative of a 420 hp car. Or a 450 hp car. It's more like a 500 hp car and this is evident with the excellent torque profile and the hp profile before the tune steps in to keep a nice gap between the S6 and the S8.

My point was simple...peak HP is usually a measure that comes near redline thanks to the multiplication effect of using RPM x torque / 5252 to come up with hp. Right? Well, if a car with a 6500 RPM redline is NEUTURED artificially by the tune at 5500 rpm or so, that last part of the curve (where peak hp is measured) is not going to reflect what has gone on before it. That's all I meant by that. If you say '420 hp cars (or 450) can't do this' you have to recognize that you're not really looking at a curve that would be compared to another 420hp car etc unless it too was neutered up top (the RS5 wasn't...in fact it and the RS4 are pushed pretty hard to redline, stock tune considered.

I also think you're oversimplifying what goes on in the RS5 when you change gears...and underestimating the power the S6 is actually making. The RS5, if gearing is anything like the RS4, will not drop back to 6500 RPM when you change gears.

When you drop into 2nd gear in the RS4 from first, you're around 4700 RPM (if you don't waste any time and don't lose any RPM.
If you do it from redline in 2nd, you engage 3rd gear at 5500 rpm then run a full 2,500 RPM to redline.
When you change to 4th gear you engage it at 5900 and then spend 2100 before redline.

These changes all assume you're going WOT and losing no speed on the changes. Anyway, check the actual numbers, not guesses. Much more interesting!

Tested RS5s weigh between 3950-3975 lbs on the tests I've seen. Don't use audi posted weights, as they are measured with cars wearing the smallest wheels, cloth seats, roll down windows, limited electronics etc. etc. i.e. they said the RS4 weighed 3750 lbs but mine weighs 3920 lbs...

p.s. RS4/RS5 are pretty similar with the exception being the RS5 has that extra 250 rpm to work with. Not a huge advantage really...but look at the gap between the almost certainly under-rated S6 and the RS4. It's a large gap everywhere but the hp at redline with the RS5. The rest of the parts of the gear where you're engaged, you're looking at the RS4/5 getting thumped by the S6.

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Re: C&D comparison: S6 vs M5 vs AMG E63

Post by JCviggen » Wed May 30, 2012 10:47 pm

sakimano wrote: I don't understand how you can say 'I don't think so' to the comment I made about the S6 torque curve/hp profile when you just admitted to never seeing it. I'm not saying it makes 500 hp at 6000 rpm.
You were effectively saying that a typical 500hp/430ft-lb car makes no more than 420hp at 6000rpm. That's where I said "no I don't think so" and with good reason, no need to see the S6 plot to figure that out (but I'd still like to see it, Audi site doesn't have it)
I am saying the tune cuts boost dramatically up above 5500 RPM So the curve and work measured as area under the curve, is not indicative of a 420 hp car.
I am sorry but it is indicative, for a 420hp turbo car anyway. At what rpm does it shift? Where does it drop down to after shifting? Like I said once you get out of first gear much of that "area under the curve" is useless and the only part of the power curve that is used is the top end (how much exactly depends on gearing)

My point was simple...peak HP is usually a measure that comes near redline thanks to the multiplication effect of using RPM x torque / 5252 to come up with hp. Right? Well, if a car with a 6500 RPM redline is NEUTURED artificially by the tune at 5500 rpm or so, that last part of the curve (where peak hp is measured) is not going to reflect what has gone on before it.


Understand that completely, but outside of the launch in a maximum acceleration scenario, both these cars will spend most of their time near the peak power region. All that torque makes more sense in daily driving than in a drag race where it only really helps you launch (very) well.
...and underestimating the power the S6 is actually making
Err my initial point was that if it gets those figures it must have more than 420.

The RS5, if gearing is anything like the RS4, will not drop back to 6500 RPM when you change gears.
[/quote]

Different box...extra gear. Check youtube. He short-shifts the first gears but at redline shifts you can see where it drops http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iejT2kCzDGI

Also, you'll notice that the RS5 in the vid is doing 60-130 in ~12 seconds. Add a bit for speedo exaggeration and you've got the exact same 60-130 as the S6...but I've never seen an RS5 that trapped 115.
B7 RS4 saloon Misano red, comfy seats, JHM tune & JHM full exhaust with cats and resonators - gone.
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