Anyone getting a good deal...?

[DragonRR]

Unless you're putting Winter tyres on the C7, good luck in thinking it will handle any better than the M5 in snow:) It's the wheel/tyre size/compound that's gonna hamper your progress in snow, not AWD vs. RWD. Looking at your photos your M5 has the 20's but you're going for 21's on the C7? The C7 with Summer tyres on that size of wheel will slide around like a bitch in the snow i'm afraid. If swapping purely due to snow performance, you'd have been better off spending £2k & getting a decent winter wheel/tyre combo on the M5.

That said, the AWD of the C7 does have some minor advantage in other road conditions:) Nice car though

I considered going to winter tyres and knew that it would help even to the point of making it OK however the cost was more than £2K (because you need wheels too) and then there's the hassle of swapping back and forth plus you should ideally add some weight in the boot. However, before my M5 I had an S5 with Dunlop Sportmaxx Tyres (OEM). These are ok but really little better than the tyres I have on my M5 (Michelin Pilot Supersport) and yet the S5 was like a bloody snowmobile compared to the M5 in even worse conditions in exactly the same location you can see in the pic.. I don't expect miracles, I realise that the ideal is winter tyres AND 4WD but 4WD is at least better than 2WD on a BMW M5 which can't get traction in a puddle.

[Nickyboy]

I have an amusing video of my Audi going past a wheel spinning BMW in the snow last year and my neighbours abandoned BMW at the end of our road.

[W8PMC]

Unless you're putting Winter tyres on the C7, good luck in thinking it will handle any better than the M5 in snow:) It's the wheel/tyre size/compound that's gonna hamper your progress in snow, not AWD vs. RWD. Looking at your photos your M5 has the 20's but you're going for 21's on the C7? The C7 with Summer tyres on that size of wheel will slide around like a bitch in the snow i'm afraid. If swapping purely due to snow performance, you'd have been better off spending £2k & getting a decent winter wheel/tyre combo on the M5.

That said, the AWD of the C7 does have some minor advantage in other road conditions:) Nice car though

I considered going to winter tyres and knew that it would help even to the point of making it OK however the cost was more than £2K (because you need wheels too) and then there's the hassle of swapping back and forth plus you should ideally add some weight in the boot. However, before my M5 I had an S5 with Dunlop Sportmaxx Tyres (OEM). These are ok but really little better than the tyres I have on my M5 (Michelin Pilot Supersport) and yet the S5 was like a bloody snowmobile compared to the M5 in even worse conditions in exactly the same location you can see in the pic.. I don't expect miracles, I realise that the ideal is winter tyres AND 4WD but 4WD is at least better than 2WD on a BMW M5 which can't get traction in a puddle.

Fair enough, but i've had several AWD cars including Audi RS's & the AWD vs RWD difference in snow is negligible as it's power/big wheels & fat tyres that makes the biggest difference. Agree with the other post regarding regular RWD cars being tricky in the snow, but the M5 had a very different RWD diff setup to other BMW's.

Although i've only had my M5 a few months & have yet to encounter snow, it has been out on cold/wet days & driven considerable distances in some of the recent storms & although it does require a slightly different driving approach to the RS's i doubt come snow time the RWD will hamper my progress over an RS on 21's.

Last performance car was a GT-R & that was horrific in the snow due to it's big fat tyres. Agreed the BMW winter package for the M5 is pricey (as are most manufacturers), but winter tyres are available for the M5 20' wheels & tbh if i went the winter tyre route i'd just get some nice aftermarket wheels in which case it's around £2k for the whole package.

Don't get me wrong, if Audi hadn't been so greedy with what they expect customers to pay for an RS then id' have likely been driving a C7 RS6 now, however the closest Audi could get was to offer me a C7 S6 for the same money as my LCI F10 M5. The S6 would have been a stock car with no options whereas i got a built to order M5 with a couple of options for the same money. Bit of a no brainer really:)

Tis a shame though but i'm enjoying a different kind of car/drive for a while & i've had a lot of Audi's over the years so a change is as good as a rest:)

[W8PMC]

Is say more than minor based on the video I posted the other day of an RS 7 vs M6.

Whereabouts is the video?

[Nickyboy]

Is say more than minor based on the video I posted the other day of an RS 7 vs M6.

Whereabouts is the video?

In the RS 7 section.

[W8PMC]

Is say more than minor based on the video I posted the other day of an RS 7 vs M6.

Whereabouts is the video?

In the RS 7 section.

Cheers, will go take a look:)

Sorry O/P for the thread diversion:)

[HYFR]

Surely a RWD car won't even get moving in the snow full stop ... Whereas the Quattro will get going no problem

My neighbour has a 3 series and I've often watched him struggling to just get off his drive in the snow whilst I laugh and tell him should have got a Quattro!

But agree, all about the snow tyres... Got some for my R8 this year

[DragonRR]

Fair enough, but i've had several AWD cars including Audi RS's & the AWD vs RWD difference in snow is negligible as it's power/big wheels & fat tyres that makes the biggest difference. Agree with the other post regarding regular RWD cars being tricky in the snow, but the M5 had a very different RWD diff setup to other BMW's.

Although i've only had my M5 a few months & have yet to encounter snow, it has been out on cold/wet days & driven considerable distances in some of the recent storms & although it does require a slightly different driving approach to the RS's i doubt come snow time the RWD will hamper my progress over an RS on 21's.

Last performance car was a GT-R & that was horrific in the snow due to it's big fat tyres. Agreed the BMW winter package for the M5 is pricey (as are most manufacturers), but winter tyres are available for the M5 20' wheels & tbh if i went the winter tyre route i'd just get some nice aftermarket wheels in which case it's around £2k for the whole package.

Don't get me wrong, if Audi hadn't been so greedy with what they expect customers to pay for an RS then id' have likely been driving a C7 RS6 now, however the closest Audi could get was to offer me a C7 S6 for the same money as my LCI F10 M5. The S6 would have been a stock car with no options whereas i got a built to order M5 with a couple of options for the same money. Bit of a no brainer really:)

Tis a shame though but i'm enjoying a different kind of car/drive for a while & i've had a lot of Audi's over the years so a change is as good as a rest:)

All I can really say about the situation with the M5 in snow was that I was shocked at just how terrible it was (with summer tyres of course). I used to live in a more flat location and managed to drive an M6 to and from there in snow. Living up a steep hill is my problem with the M5.

I was offered a <4K miles M6 GC for a great deal less than the RS6 I'm getting. I don't really see how Audi justifies the significant premium for the RS6 but the prices of the nearly new ones alone are high and most of the dealers I spoke to said that RS6s were selling very well.

EDIT:
How do you think the GT-R you had compares to your M5?

[doodlebug]

I was offered a <4K miles M6 GC for a great deal less than the RS6 I'm getting. I don't really see how Audi justifies the significant premium for the RS6 but the prices of the nearly new ones alone are high and most of the dealers I spoke to said that RS6s were selling very well.

I agree with this. I think part of the answer lies in the record sales in 2013, therefore brand recognition and associated demand meaning that people are willing to pay.

Look at the deals on E63 and M5, makes the RS6 look very expensive. The only way the RS6 works for me is with a reasonable discount. Used prices are holding and cars are not sticking around for long. This says a lot. How long this remains the case we'll have to see.

[W8PMC]

Surely a RWD car won't even get moving in the snow full stop ... Whereas the Quattro will get going no problem

My neighbour has a 3 series and I've often watched him struggling to just get off his drive in the snow whilst I laugh and tell him should have got a Quattro!

But agree, all about the snow tyres... Got some for my R8 this year

Grip is tyres vs. contact area & fat (sticky) summer tyres on either tyre of drivetrain is where the challenge lies, not AWD vs. RWD although yes the AWD setup will provide some level of assistance.

The RWD setup in a 3 series is very different to the more advanced Sports Diff on an M5/6 & alongside this the M5/6 have the advanced M-DCT transmissions so although not proven yet by me as the snow hasn't arrived, i can make all the progress i need to on wet/damp roads & with low ambient temps. I do again agree however that you need to stay a little alert, probably more so than in a Quattro in less favourable conditions, but even when my tail's been wagging it has never presented this in a dangerous or uncontrollable manner (if that makes sense?).

I'll happily eat my words if in a few weeks i'm stuck on the side of some road unable to get going in the snow:)

[doodlebug]

Mmm, I think you'll be in the same boat M RWD or not! Plenty of exotic RWD stuff around me a good giggle to watch in the snow, that's living up a hill for you.

Quattro will get you moving pretty much without exception, stopping is another matter, nothing like being on a 2 tonne sled.

[W8PMC]

I was offered a <4K miles M6 GC for a great deal less than the RS6 I'm getting. I don't really see how Audi justifies the significant premium for the RS6 but the prices of the nearly new ones alone are high and most of the dealers I spoke to said that RS6s were selling very well.

I agree with this. I think part of the answer lies in the record sales in 2013, therefore brand recognition and associated demand meaning that people are willing to pay.

Look at the deals on E63 and M5, makes the RS6 look very expensive. The only way the RS6 works for me is with a reasonable discount. Used prices are holding and cars are not sticking around for long. This says a lot. How long this remains the case we'll have to see.

Demand for the RS6 has been fairly low & currently lower than the C6 at the same point in its build cycle. The B8 RS4 has been selling badly by all accounts & certainly when compared to the B7. Deals i hear are abound for this particular RS.

Audi are very good at keeping the RS6 cars prices high as they limit production in such a way that dealer demo's & early 2nd hand cars keep residuals high as most folk (including me) who decide they want a car want it now. This backfires when these Audi's reach 12-18mths old & the reality kicks in.

I guess both BMW & Mercedes thought to hell with it & wanted to get there premium cars out on the road so build times are less than 8 weeks (my car took just over 5 weeks from order to collection from the dealer). What's also unusual is these 2 manufacturers are offering good residuals so PCP/Lease deals are too good to be true (Audi refuse to do this).

The only reason i jumped into one of these new M5's was the crazy deals as what i'll pay over the time i have the car would not even come close to covering the depreciation & yet i'm driving a premium model for the same money as mid range:)

[doodlebug]

Out of curiosity where are you order numbers coming from? By all accounts it's selling pretty well. I cannot believe it's selling worse than C6 did given C6's arrival time. Audi UK also forward ordered a lot of C6s which they then had to massively discount which is likely to bugger up comparisons.

Personally I dislike the BMW looks, especially interior, so despite the pricing it's just not for me. That one piece dash looks like something out of the starship enterprise. The Merc is better, but still not at the same level as the Audi.

[W8PMC]

Out of curiosity where are you order numbers coming from? By all accounts it's selling pretty well. I cannot believe it's selling worse than C6 did given C6's arrival time. Audi UK also forward ordered a lot of C6s which they then had to massively discount which is likely to bugger up comparisons.

Personally I dislike the BMW looks, especially interior, so despite the pricing it's just not for me. That one piece dash looks like something out of the starship enterprise. The Merc is better, but still not at the same level as the Audi.

From Audi UK:) Audi will have forward ordered a few C7's too as they had quite a few floating around for the Audi Sport events & press cars. No idea if more C6's were put on Audi fleet than C7's but i'd assume the numbers to be similar. Audi themselves expect to sell less C7 RS6's than they did C6's however the C7 is only available in one variant whereas previous incarnations have had 2 so i'm sure that may alter the playing field, plus the RS7 now exists.

I'm not a great fan of any particular marque nowadays & naturally it's all down to personal opinion, however i'd be hard pushed to find many who prefer the Audi interior as even in the C7 RS6 it's already dated & each variant just feels like a minor refresh when compared to it's predecessor. I had an extended drive of an R8 V10 Plus a couple of months ago & that interior wasn't dissimilar to the C5 RS6 plus. Everything else however was galaxies apart:)

Even the Autoexpress clip referred to earlier (RS7 vs M6GC) made reference to the same points.

[W8PMC]

Fair enough, but i've had several AWD cars including Audi RS's & the AWD vs RWD difference in snow is negligible as it's power/big wheels & fat tyres that makes the biggest difference. Agree with the other post regarding regular RWD cars being tricky in the snow, but the M5 had a very different RWD diff setup to other BMW's.

Although i've only had my M5 a few months & have yet to encounter snow, it has been out on cold/wet days & driven considerable distances in some of the recent storms & although it does require a slightly different driving approach to the RS's i doubt come snow time the RWD will hamper my progress over an RS on 21's.

Last performance car was a GT-R & that was horrific in the snow due to it's big fat tyres. Agreed the BMW winter package for the M5 is pricey (as are most manufacturers), but winter tyres are available for the M5 20' wheels & tbh if i went the winter tyre route i'd just get some nice aftermarket wheels in which case it's around £2k for the whole package.

Don't get me wrong, if Audi hadn't been so greedy with what they expect customers to pay for an RS then id' have likely been driving a C7 RS6 now, however the closest Audi could get was to offer me a C7 S6 for the same money as my LCI F10 M5. The S6 would have been a stock car with no options whereas i got a built to order M5 with a couple of options for the same money. Bit of a no brainer really:)

Tis a shame though but i'm enjoying a different kind of car/drive for a while & i've had a lot of Audi's over the years so a change is as good as a rest:)

All I can really say about the situation with the M5 in snow was that I was shocked at just how terrible it was (with summer tyres of course). I used to live in a more flat location and managed to drive an M6 to and from there in snow. Living up a steep hill is my problem with the M5.

I was offered a <4K miles M6 GC for a great deal less than the RS6 I'm getting. I don't really see how Audi justifies the significant premium for the RS6 but the prices of the nearly new ones alone are high and most of the dealers I spoke to said that RS6s were selling very well.

EDIT:
How do you think the GT-R you had compares to your M5?

I've been asked this question many times & it's a tough comparison as on road & on track virtually nothing could keep up with my GT-R, but that's also it's limiting factor as although being insane in terms of performance it wasn't that great at long distances, had fairly high running costs for what it was & was a long way off a complete package, but although i don't miss it i'm extremely glad i owned one.

The M5 & this will naturally apply to the C7 RS6 & new E Class AMG are just better all round packages & ownership experiences, they can do 80-90% of what the GT-R can do performance wise, but in all other areas are much better as in better interiors, better fit/finish, better components, higher build quality, better equipment levels, high levels of practicality & lower running costs. They also possess the ability to be driven as sedate luxury vehicles when required but at the push of a button/loud pedal can transform into extremely capable performance cars, whereas the GT-R is only able to do the latter. I also now prefer the less shouty appearance of the M5 as to the untrained eye is blends in with all the other 5's in the same way the RS & E63's do:)

See below for a comparison on performance stats & you'll see they're not as far apart as you'd expect, however they deliver very different experiences.

http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_m5_f10.html
http://fastestlaps.com/cars/nissan_gt-r.html