New C7 Power upgrade

[W8PMC]

What does MRC cover??
All I can vouch for is I've always been assured that if and that is an if in my case as I've previously said out of 20 odd cars we've had remapped non have had a failure. And if any had DMS assured us that before our cars went back to the dealer they would reinstate our OE data back into the ECU.
As I've asked before. Has anyone had to make any such warranty claim due to a catastrophic failure???

Likewise & nope. I pay for a Premium product from DMS as i know pretty much any eventuality will be covered.

Also note (not directed at you Eddie, just a general note), our cars can suffer serious mechanical failure in stock form. My 1st F10 M5 failed & was rejected at 5 months old with 6k miles on the clock & well before i even considered upping her credentials. My C5 RS6 had a new Tiptronic box fitted under warranty when the car was stock. My E60 M5 had a total SMG failure when stock, although i did tune the car once replaced & to be honest it ran far better tuned (i don't just mean quicker) than it ever did stock.

[Leo-RS]

There is a lot of unnecessary scaremongering reference this whole TD1 issue and a lot of speculation

The chances of a blowing an engine from a reputable tuner on a Stage 1 remap are slim, to put a number on it, I would say 1 in the thousands. I have personally never heard of a stage 1 tune blowing an engine on any car on any forum, that's not to say that it doesn't happen, just that it must be extremely rare. Engine failures usually occur when additional hardware is added to an engine, i.e stage 3 tuning and beyond where bigger turbo's/superchargers are bolted on.

Tuning a 560ps designed engine upto 700ps is only a 25% increase in power. Good old German engineering design components with much higher tolerances than 25%. There are a few 2.5T TTRS/RS3 engines happily running along with 600hp from a 335hp origin. There are a couple of 4.0TT RS6 and an RS7 that I know of approaching 1000hp on the standard internals and have been for a while without issues, 700hp should not worry you.
Someone mentioned RS3 gearbox failures? Nope, these were propshaft failures and only at the shear bolts. Audi updated the software soon after to allow for a less aggressive launch in order to rectify this issue as standard cars were snapping them too.

The risk of an expensive engine or gearbox failure is extremely low but of course, not zero, it's a chance you have to take if you want to go down the tuning path.

Now to TD1, in the RS6, the ECU is easily removable, there is no protected casing that it sits underneath with anti tamper bolts, it's a clip out job, a few seconds to remove. If the worst case did happen and you blew the engine or gearbox, only a fool would take it to an Audi dealership with an ECU that had altered software on it. A £20k bill for a new engine or alternative thinking

You could...

1) Remove the ECU, post it to your tuner and get them to load the original file back on. Your top tuners can do this and leave no trace, no checksum errors, no TD1 flag, nothing.
2) Purchase a new ECU
3) Make the original ECU unreadable.

I'm not saying that you should, I'm saying that you could, there's a difference. That decision would be up to the individual.

It gets tricky when you have a load of modified hardware on the car, exhaust/intercoolers/turbo upgrades etc. Software only though, the whole TD1 thing is a storm in a teacup.

Just take your car to an indy for servicing if you're worried about checksum comparisons between servicings.

I agree with Paul (W8PMC), even in the worst case scenario, they are not going to deny warranty on your lights or the amp in your stereo because you have modified the boost parameter table in the ECU. Pistons, rods, clutch, yes, lights, seats, satnav, nope.

It's the risks you take, tuning is not for us all

[W8PMC]

There is a lot of unnecessary scaremongering reference this whole TD1 issue and a lot of speculation

The chances of a blowing an engine from a reputable tuner on a Stage 1 remap are slim, to put a number on it, I would say 1 in the thousands. I have personally never heard of a stage 1 tune blowing an engine on any car on any forum, that's not to say that it doesn't happen, just that it must be extremely rare. Engine failures usually occur when additional hardware is added to an engine, i.e stage 3 tuning and beyond where bigger turbo's/superchargers are bolted on.

Tuning a 560ps designed engine upto 700ps is only a 25% increase in power. Good old German engineering design components with much higher tolerances than 25%. There are a few 2.5T TTRS/RS3 engines happily running along with 600hp from a 335hp origin. There are a couple of 4.0TT RS6 and an RS7 that I know of approaching 1000hp on the standard internals and have been for a while without issues, 700hp should not worry you.
Someone mentioned RS3 gearbox failures? Nope, these were propshaft failures and only at the shear bolts. Audi updated the software soon after to allow for a less aggressive launch in order to rectify this issue as standard cars were snapping them too.

The risk of an expensive engine or gearbox failure is extremely low but of course, not zero, it's a chance you have to take if you want to go down the tuning path.

Now to TD1, in the RS6, the ECU is easily removable, there is no protected casing that it sits underneath with anti tamper bolts, it's a clip out job, a few seconds to remove. If the worst case did happen and you blew the engine or gearbox, only a fool would take it to an Audi dealership with an ECU that had altered software on it. A £20k bill for a new engine or alternative thinking

You could...

1) Remove the ECU, post it to your tuner and get them to load the original file back on. Your top tuners can do this and leave no trace, no checksum errors, no TD1 flag, nothing.
2) Purchase a new ECU
3) Make the original ECU unreadable.

I'm not saying that you should, I'm saying that you could, there's a difference. That decision would be up to the individual.

It gets tricky when you have a load of modified hardware on the car, exhaust/intercoolers/turbo upgrades etc. Software only though, the whole TD1 thing is a storm in a teacup.

Just take your car to an indy for servicing if you're worried about checksum comparisons between servicings.

I agree with Paul (W8PMC), even in the worst case scenario, they are not going to deny warranty on your lights or the amp in your stereo because you have modified the boost parameter table in the ECU. Pistons, rods, clutch, yes, lights, seats, satnav, nope.

It's the risks you take, tuning is not for us all

Great points & as regards the ECU, far more technical than my level of explanation would allow:). This supports the premium tuning route where a Tuner removes the ECU & bench tunes whilst using the RR to custom that tune to the specific vehicle & also why i'd never ever go the cheap & cheerful route of a generic map/tuning box on a premium vehicle.

As Eddie says above regarding DMS (i'm sure MRC & others can/would do the same), if a catastrophic failure occurred the ECU could be returned to it's OEM state very quickly & easily. I'd be 99.9% confident that more stock vehicles have major drivetrain component failures than tuned cars as a %age & my experiences are certainly this.

[Paulm]

If you remap your car and the drive train or engine fails that's just tough. Trying to claim off the dealer warranty is just not right in my book!!! it's the same as all these Muppets with no insurance it hurts us all in the end with higher premiums.

I remap and tune every car I have owned and would never even contemplate defrauding the dealer, even though they deserve it

[W8PMC]

If you remap your car and the drive train or engine fails that's just tough. Trying to claim off the dealer warranty is just not right in my book!!! it's the same as all these Muppets with no insurance it hurts us all in the end with higher premiums.

I remap and tune every car I have owned and would never even contemplate defrauding the dealer, even though they deserve it

I doubt anyone would disagree with this Paul. However i'd only be comfortable with that approach if it was fairly certain the tune caused the failure & in that case it would be the tuner who'd rectify the problem. Stock Audi/BMW engines & gearboxes go pop so what's to say this couldn't be the case with a tuned car? Naturally if you as the owner were really pushing the limits then fair enough, but if still well within tolerances i'd want to be sure the failure was somehow linked to the tune rather than just accept a dealers brush off. As above i've had 3 gearboxes on high performance cars fail while totally stock.

[S4WON]

Yes eddie, loads of people on "the internet". Search "Audi TD1" plenty of tears from clowns, who thought they were covered..

Heck ive even put a photocopy up of the official audi warranty page that says ANY modification invalidates ALL warranty, and do people listen? Do they fcuk, they tell themselves what they want to hear.

We both know that's incorrect. Also wasn't that warranty photocopy you posted only applicable for Audi Approved Used Cars?

Audi as would any manufacturer are going to walk away or at least try to if it's perceived a modification has caused a component failure, however they'd need a fairly good case & could never carte blanche invalidate an entire vehicle warranty due to an ECU tune. Can you really see a conversation such as 'my Sunroof motor has failed', sorry Sir your car is tuned. 'I have an annoying rattle coming from the offside rear wheel' sorry Sir your car is tuned.

Clowns will be clowns & if they choose to acquire a cheap generic tune from a less that reputable source then that's their business, however (& this isn't of course specific to just DMS & would no doubt include the likes of MRC & Litchfields among others), if said tune caused a mechanical failure on the car that the Mfctr wasn't prepared or willing to cover then the Tuner would put right & if they for whatever reason went out of business during that time which given the size & stature of those named above is extremely unlikely, then the Insured aspect of the warranty would be deployed.

This is one of the contributing factors such tunes are more expensive than the cheaper generic maps/tuning boxes & let's be honest, do you really think the above companies are going to produce code that's expected to significantly reduce the lifespan of the owners cars key components as i'm sure MRC & DMS do not relish the idea of seeing 'My *** tuned car has blown up & i'm thousands of ££'s out of pocket'? Yes the risk will increase slightly, but still well within the cars tolerances.

Each to their own as to what they do with their cars & for many perhaps that small risk is too much, but as long as you stick with a reputable tuner who's product is tried & tested & they offer a warranty on their components/code then i'm sure that risk has been mitigated as well as it can be.

Are you a contract lawyer?

Hint: if the answer is no, put that "photocopied audi document" in front of one and get a professional opinion, rather than internet guesswork.

You mod, you take your chances with ALL warranty claims, its there in black and white. Ignore it at your peril

\end thread

[W8PMC]

Yes eddie, loads of people on "the internet". Search "Audi TD1" plenty of tears from clowns, who thought they were covered..

Heck ive even put a photocopy up of the official audi warranty page that says ANY modification invalidates ALL warranty, and do people listen? Do they fcuk, they tell themselves what they want to hear.

We both know that's incorrect. Also wasn't that warranty photocopy you posted only applicable for Audi Approved Used Cars?

Audi as would any manufacturer are going to walk away or at least try to if it's perceived a modification has caused a component failure, however they'd need a fairly good case & could never carte blanche invalidate an entire vehicle warranty due to an ECU tune. Can you really see a conversation such as 'my Sunroof motor has failed', sorry Sir your car is tuned. 'I have an annoying rattle coming from the offside rear wheel' sorry Sir your car is tuned.

Clowns will be clowns & if they choose to acquire a cheap generic tune from a less that reputable source then that's their business, however (& this isn't of course specific to just DMS & would no doubt include the likes of MRC & Litchfields among others), if said tune caused a mechanical failure on the car that the Mfctr wasn't prepared or willing to cover then the Tuner would put right & if they for whatever reason went out of business during that time which given the size & stature of those named above is extremely unlikely, then the Insured aspect of the warranty would be deployed.

This is one of the contributing factors such tunes are more expensive than the cheaper generic maps/tuning boxes & let's be honest, do you really think the above companies are going to produce code that's expected to significantly reduce the lifespan of the owners cars key components as i'm sure MRC & DMS do not relish the idea of seeing 'My *** tuned car has blown up & i'm thousands of ££'s out of pocket'? Yes the risk will increase slightly, but still well within the cars tolerances.

Each to their own as to what they do with their cars & for many perhaps that small risk is too much, but as long as you stick with a reputable tuner who's product is tried & tested & they offer a warranty on their components/code then i'm sure that risk has been mitigated as well as it can be.

Are you a contract lawyer?

Hint: if the answer is no, put that "photocopied audi document" in front of one and get a professional opinion, rather than internet guesswork.

You mod, you take your chances with ALL warranty claims, its there in black and white. Ignore it at your peril

\end thread

No & no need to as that's been done many times before. Have i got the wrong Warranty as wasn't 'your' photocopy as i said relative to the Audi Approved Used Car T&C's & not new cars? I've bought many cars from many manufacturers & NONE of them can blanket void a warranty due to an aftermarket modification. Related parts if applicable yes, but unrelated not a chance.

Totally agree you take your chances but as for black & white? i'm afraid not.

\the actual end thread (although that's kind of up to the o/p really).

[W8PMC]

Just checked the Audi website & this is what i'm reading relative to new Audi's:

https://www.audi.co.uk/content/audi/own ... ranty.html

Here's the T&C's:

https://www.audi.co.uk/owners-area/audi ... tions.html

Perhaps it's different to AUC's.

Here's BMW's. It does make reference to modifications, but just states BMW & it's Agents are not responsible for Modifications that may lead to defects which sounds pretty sensible to me:

http://www.bmwparklane.com/service-page ... onditions/

[S4WON]

Those links suggest that Audi will cover any mods "as long as they are removed". That is also clearly not the case.

Heres just one example:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answe ... -can-i-do-

Audi want to shift motors. They don't care what you do to it once it leaves the showroom,but they will care if you try to claim from them.

Take on their legal team if you want, GLWT

[Chesterfield]

I believe the wording from the full t's and c's is:

This insurance does not cover any injury, failure, loss or damage caused by, arising from or in
connection with the following:

6.Vehicles modified in any way from the original manufacturer’s specification.

The significant part being "caused by, arising from or in connection with".

As has been said, claiming on the warranty for a knackered piston when you have a mapped car, is not going to fly. A faulty speaker or door lock etc has not been caused by, nor has it arisen from or is it connected to the engine map. Therefor would be covered.

They are highly likely to run it through a diagnostics and stick a td1 on it anyway, which then may cause issues with resale/trade in etc but that's a whole other question mark.

[S4WON]

I believe the wording from the full t's and c's is:

This insurance does not cover any injury, failure, loss or damage caused by, arising from or in
connection with the following:

6.Vehicles modified in any way from the original manufacturer’s specification.

The significant part being "caused by, arising from or in connection with".

As has been said, claiming on the warranty for a knackered piston when you have a mapped car, is not going to fly. A faulty speaker or door lock etc has not been caused by, nor has it arisen from or is it connected to the engine map. Therefor would be covered.

They are highly likely to run it through a diagnostics and stick a td1 on it anyway, which then may cause issues with resale/trade in etc but that's a whole other question mark.

+1

[bam_bam]

Didn't take long for TD1 to come up.

[W8PMC]

Those links suggest that Audi will cover any mods "as long as they are removed". That is also clearly not the case.

Heres just one example:
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answe ... -can-i-do-

Audi want to shift motors. They don't care what you do to it once it leaves the showroom,but they will care if you try to claim from them.

Take on their legal team if you want, GLWT

But they're Audi's own words.

As i've said now several times, nobody is arguing or claiming that Audi can't or won't reject a claim for any failures caused by any non OEM modification to their cars, but you said Audi would legally apply a carte blanche refusal on any warranty claim if the car's been modified & this simply is untrue.

I had a Drivetrain malfunction on my 1st F10 M5 that was being caused by contaminants in the fuel rail. Under load these would become detached from the rail & block an injector, thus throwing the car into maximum limp mode (somewhat scary). The car was NOT modified in any way. After 2 failed fixes i rejected the car & ordered a new one (this cost BMW in excess of £10k). My point is engines, transmissions & other key components fail on stock cars. This same scenario had occurred on a handful of F10 M5's which indicates a bad batch of fuel rails, so even if my car had been remapped, BMW would have had no chance of refusing my claim as i'd have been able to prove the failure on other Stock cars.

Of course if my car had been modified & it was fairly obvious the tune was the cause then the Mfctr should if they saw fit refuse to pay up & at that point the Tuner would be stepping in with their warranty as it was their tune that caused the failure (worth noting as far as my tuner experiences are concerned this has never happened). A quality tuner won't be applying code that's likely to cause key component failure as this is hardly a sensible business model. Also worth noting that if the Customer felt at the time of the failure it could have been caused by the tune, then that's where the car would be recovered to for initial diagnosis, not the Main Dealer.

It's horses for courses & all down to personal choice, but i along with many others are comfortable with theirs, however i'm sure that's by no means a guarantee & some won't want to take any risk, no matter how small.

[W8PMC]

I believe the wording from the full t's and c's is:

This insurance does not cover any injury, failure, loss or damage caused by, arising from or in
connection with the following:

6.Vehicles modified in any way from the original manufacturer’s specification.

The significant part being "caused by, arising from or in connection with".

As has been said, claiming on the warranty for a knackered piston when you have a mapped car, is not going to fly. A faulty speaker or door lock etc has not been caused by, nor has it arisen from or is it connected to the engine map. Therefor would be covered.

They are highly likely to run it through a diagnostics and stick a td1 on it anyway, which then may cause issues with resale/trade in etc but that's a whole other question mark.

+1

That's strange as is what i've been saying & argues your earlier point S4WON of a blanket warranty refusal for a modified car.

[Chesterfield]

For me, the question isn't what is and isnt covered by the warranty if I stick a stage 1 on the car, Im fairly confident I will lose all drivetrain and associated warranty.

I can weigh up the pros and cons of that risk, large or small.

The real issue for me, which I haven't seen much evidence of being answered in the real world, is where will this leave the car when it comes to trading in?

If I have a stage 1 on the car, and this is picked up by Audi and the drivetrain warranty voided, then fine, I can live with that. I want to know what happens when I come to trade it in a couple of years later against a C8 RS6, or another car.. Surely this has to affect trade in values, or even the ability to trade into a VAG dealer at all?