God for london mayor...

[Turbo Joe]

Blower - out of interest, what's your avatar?

Its Wolverine out of the X Men.

[dubwhizz]

The burden of proof is on the evolutionist, not the creationist as the evolution theory is the religion which is being pushed via the mainstream media and in the education system at tax payer's expense.

its hardly a burden of proof, its just science and were still working it out. at least we're trying. religious zealots have only a book to stand behind and a pretty crappy one at that. for every zealot preaching what is at best a theory there is a scientist proving his thinking.

and the last time i went to school, we recited a christian prayer and sang christian hymns. didnt you?

[S4TAN]

According to the evo theory, plants were on the planet millions of years before before the sun appeared.

WHAT? Where on earth did you get that crap from??? Don't be so bloody ridiculous! The Sun formed BEFORE the earth you lunatic! Not one single evolutionist theory states what you've said in your quote above - you've just resorted to lying now haven't you .... how utterly weak. The sun is ~5billion years old - the earth is 4.5 billion - do the maths!

My question to you is where did the water come from

Earth and other planets started as a bunch of left over debris from dead stars: iron, nickel, carbon. Just to name a few. S star forms from collapsing hydrogen clouds which will create a swirling motion naturally. Eventually the young star will eat all the buoyant hydrogen and spin all the heavy metals surrounding it. This debris of metals and other elements will eventually collided with each other to form globs of collected material or rocks. As these rocks continue to grow with each collision eventually it will start to bend it's boundaries which promotes a stronger force of gravity. Gravity naturally pulls objects to its center, this is why the planet are round, and anything that tries to over exceed the boundaries of gravity will collapse. To summarize, a giant rocky ball composed of space leftovers is now rotating an object more massive than its self, a skeletal earth is born.

The law of gravity forced the earth to pull what its made of to its center. This law creates friction and pressure with in the earth. With this friction and pressure comes heat. This heat will eventually melt the contents of the skeletal earth, remember (nickel, carbon, iron, there are lots more). Lava is now created. With time the out side of the skeletal earth will form a cool rocky crust, kind of like the skin on your soup after you let it cool too long. Same idea with earth, it is cooling off as the star (our sun) continues to force the earth to rotate.

The earth now has a cooled crust and hot lava flowing below it, this creates volcano's! Volcano's have very narrow pockets which allow the lava to shoot out creating more rocks and eventually water! Over lots and lots of time more crust is layered upon it self. Causing cooler rocks which will eventually form condensation within their pores. If you have ever seen a lava rock the pores are very apparent, the pores are created from the bubbling of the lava as it is cooling. This process is more likely to occur at the north and south poles. Every body knows the poles of the earth are cooler and the equator is warmer. The colder it gets at the poles the more of a chance condensation will occur.

As this cycle repeats through years of seasons, which still exist without water. The seasons are created from the rotation of the earth around the sun. Earth is further from the Sun in some spots but closer in other. So this creates a cold and hot seasons which are experience through out the entire earth. The condensation within the pores of lava rocks will eventually freeze then melt then pool. With pooled water at the poles it only has three places to go, 1: freeze 2:drip or stream somewhere else or 3: evaporate into the atmosphere, which creates clouds! Which transfers water! which causes rain! which cause more pooling on other regions of the earth and with time; oceans, polar ice caps, violent wet weather and life.

Sedimentary rocks are the result of millions of years according to the evo theory. If one layer of rock sat there waiting for millions of years waiting for the next one to form on top of it, why are there no errosion marks between the layers

Your warped ersion of science is SO bad it amazes me! Sedimentary rocks are exactly that - sediments. Layers don't "wait for millions of years" between each other - it's a constant and continuous process of laying down of sediments ... easy really!

I don't have to prove Genesis,

Well well, what a surprise! Because you CAN'T - yet again you FAIL dismally Blower!

If your religion called evolution cannot stand up to hard scrutiny and has no more evidence to support it, oh well, its not my fault you picked a dumb theory to begin with

Silly boy! Science does stand up to scrutiny as it can prove it's hypotheses by repeateable testing. It's your daft fairy stories that have ZERO proof and ZERO evidence. You've picked a dumb religion (as they all are) - it's time for you to realise your mistake before you show yourself up even more (if that's possible - but for you I fear it's too late - I think you're now beyond redemption)

The burden of proof is on the evolutionist, not the creationist

How convenient, what a blatantly obvious way of worming your way out of it again, you simply have NO evidence for your daft delusions - well let's play your game and just switch that around and say the burden of proof is on the creationist, not the evolutionist. There you go - i've turned your own argument on you - such an easy tactic to employ isn't it!? (albeit a very lame one)

I'm just waiting for your usually non intelligent response such as, "you're stupid" or "you're deluded" or "you're brainwashed" or "you're ignorant" or "you're a fool". Please stick to the topic at hand and at least try to answer the questions presented. Snide remarks will simply show that you have no answers.

That's priceless - coming from you it's hilarious. Throughout this entire thread you've called people ignorant and foolish - so according to your quote above that would make you "snide" and "non-intelligent" wouldn't it? .... it's also yet another example of you failing to answer the questions and using your usual tactic of wriggling out of it by deflection. A clear example of you having no answers (yet again) - not very bright are you Blower?

Stop listening to the loony creationist agenda pseudo-scientists who come out with crap about granite and such like - do yourself a favour god-boy - wake up; you're in the 21st century now. If you read my post on granite you'd realise that there are many forms of granite - some not even genuine granite - so which form are you on about in your utterly daft post about liquid granite?? Name the scientists who come out with this crap - I'll bet big money that they'll be christians ... and not qualified independent serious academics.

See, you think you are smart(wearing somebody else's armour AGAIN) but you've made a serious boo boo. You've just shafted yourself. This is what happens when you don't conduct proper research

Best line of all! Blower - so whose "armour" do you wear? Loony creationist so-called 'scientists'?No doubt you'll come back with a suitably daft answer such as "gods armour!"

Funny - I think you'll find that most people reading your bizarre and groundless garbage will see that it is you who "shaft yourself" and make a "serious boo boo" every time you post in this thread.

I don't need to call you a fool - you make it very clear that you are without the need for me, or anyone else, to call you one.

I can't be bothered with you anymore - make of that what you will. But the truth is people like you are simply beyond help - I can only hope that one day it dawns on you how silly you've been.

[Turbo Joe]

Polonium halos are a scientific fact and are a serious obstacle to the evolution theory despite your ramblings about so called "false science".

As for your explanation as to how we got water, this is the funniest load of garbage if ever I did see. Firstly, you are calling upon the laws of force and gravity but have no explanation as to how these laws got set in motion in the first place and where they came from.

Secondly, where did all these chemicals come from to start with(chemical evolution). It seems clear to me that you are just taking them being present on the early earth as a given. Don't fret as the top boys are still having trouble with this one.

Thirdly, because of your reducing atmosphere(no oxygen) you still cannot get your water regardless of your climate changes. Simply put, no oxygen no water. You can pull all the stunts and gymnastics you want to on this one but the facts are the facts, NO WATER WITHOUT OXYGEN PERIOD!

You claim that I believe in a book of fiction, in one reference a "bible comic". Yet I gave you a chance to show me some faults in this "comic" and you couldn't. You tried your best and it was a noble effort but you failed. Come on S4-Tan, if indeed the bible is nonsense, you should be able to pick holes in it left right and center.

The fact is because of your pride, you will remain wrong and strong regardless of how many times you are shown to be wrong.

Perhaps somebody else would like to take over from this exhausted soul and show me some faults, contradictions and errors in the bible. IF THE BIBLE IS A LOAD OF CRAP, PLEASE SHOW ME THE CRAP IN IT PLEASE!

[S4TAN]

IF THE BIBLE IS A LOAD OF CRAP, PLEASE SHOW ME THE CRAP IN IT PLEASE!

Start at page 1 - go through to the last page - all the crap is in between.

You've not shown me to be wrong once - it's all just bluster and cod science from you B-lower.

Gravity came from the symmetry-breaking of energy after the big-bang (as did the other 3 fundamental forces of nature)

All of the elements found in nature come from the death of stars. Chemical compounds then derive from these elements.

A few faults from your bible-comic: Adam & Eve, Jesus walking on water, resurrecting himself from death, turning water into wine, walking on water, virgin birth etc etc - these are just a few - if it's so easy for you to prove these then please do so now.

Come on B-lower - prove them NOW! No side-stepping, no bullshit, no deflection or twisting it round - PROVE THEM IN YOUR REPLY TO THIS POST IF YOU CAN - if you don't supply the proof in your response then you will show that you're stories are false.

I look forward to your failure.

[CliveH]

the earth was not a hot molten lump and that it was created cold

an amusing claim - have you seen what,s happening in Chile right now? or is this some evo propoganda accepted by every news agency? or even another one of your god,s reprisals?? if so, what have these poor people done to deserve this - more witchcraft???

[Turbo Joe]

Every scientific fact from my camp has ben cod to you. The fact is even if you were wrong(which you have been on several counts, liquid granite being your lastest folly), you still would not openly admit it. So therefore as if the constant repetition of something is going to make it real, you just keep repeating the same things over and over, "false science", "its all crap", "its not true", "deluded creationist ideas" etc. Regardless of what problems I have shown you with your religion, you simply just refuse to look into them(willingly ignorant).

Not even knowing what gravity actually is, you still attempt to throw over a ridiculous hypothosis as to how we got it. All we know about it is what is does, which is hold us down on the ground. Not being able to explain where the energy came from to initiate the big bang and how the ball got rolling in the first place is a serious problem for the evolutionist and always will be.

Ok so its all crap now is it, because I smashed all of the so called contradicitions, errors and faults that you put forward, you have to resort to pitiful generalizations. It is much easier for me to believe that we came from Adam and Eve approximately 6000 years ago than to believe that we evolved from a rock 4.6 billion years ago. Show me some chromosomes in a rock, would you please? I'll think you'll find it has 0. Also because real observable science shows us that animals and humans produce offspring like for like after their kind, it is not logical to accept the evolutionist's theory on the origin of life. Please show us an example of life coming from non living material!!!

As for Christ and his miracles I have never said I can prove these, I have always admitted that I take all what he done and his ressurection from the dead on faith. The evoltionist though expects us to believe that evolving from a rock and animals producing a fundamentally different kind of animal is science, despite the fact that we can clearly see differently through live observation. Show me an example of an animal producing a fundamentally different kind of animal today. Why can it only happen long ago and far away?

Failure, whatever. Just admit you believe in a religion also as this hypothosis are certainly not facts, nor are they observable and therefore not science.

[S4TAN]

Just admit you believe in a religion also as this hypothosis are certainly not facts, nor are they observable and therefore not science.

No - I believe in science, not as a religion, but as reproducible evidence by testing; e.g. science says that if you dissolve salt into water it makes a salt solution that when left to dry will form salt crystals and water will vapourise off - that is repeatable a thousand million times and works every time - I don't need faith to believe that. That's science.

A rock doesn't need chromosomes Blower, that's just a very silly thing to say, no-one knows where life came from yet, yes - it is an enduring mystery - but not one that needs the intervention of a divine being to be explained - science will reveal the answer in the end - as it has done for nearly all of the world we see (and don't see) around us - in time science will inevitably explain the remaining mysteries - then, at last, we will finally be rid of archaic beliefs such as yours - and the world will be a much better place for it.

Believe in Adam and Eve and a 6,000 year old earth if you want - if it works for you then great. I'll give you one thing though - I am definitely exhausted by this - it's like trying to break the news to a beligerent child that Santa doesn't exist; they just don't want to accept it, and will argue tooth and claw against it.

As for your childish claims at having "smashed" my theories/evidence/science (or whatever you want to call it) - you've "smashed" exactly nothing in reality - well, all except for my belief that the ignorant can be educated - you have most definitely "smashed" that belief (sadly). But I think that's down to your wilfully deliberate ignorance and blind faith. No point going futher with this - believe in your doctrine and dogma if it gives you the crutch you so clearly need to lean on, some people are beyond help - and I think you're one of them


As I said sometime before; you can lead a horse to water ...

I'm going to leave you to it now Blower - the debate has become circular. Others may come and continue the debate with you - but I doubt it. I think they'll surmise from our exchange that it's pointless. Gnash your teeth, brandish your cross, and preach your stories of heaven, hell, devils and wrathful gods as loudly as you want - but I think you'll be doing it to an empty house.

[Turbo Joe]

Ok sir, as I simply stated before, you have a lifestyle to maintain and the thought of a devine creator getting his foot in the door would seriously force you to consider how you are living out your life. This is the same case with the rest of the atheists that support you on here, Lifestyle Preservation. Like I said before, since nobody has shown me any errors, contradictions or faults in the "bible comic book" even though it was tried, there is no reason for me to put it down and doubt it.

[GardinerG]

And you have shown us no reason to believe it either. You haven't made a strong case for yourself or your religion here Blower, as with all due respect some of the things you have said are utter rubbish and contain many contradictions, even if the Bible "doesn't".

Considering that some humanoid remains have been dated to be about 40,000years old I would say you might just be wrong about the whole 6000 year old earth. And I'm not even going to start spouting evidence of neanderthalic man dating back as far as 500,000 years ago, dinosaurs etc. They must just be a figmant of humankind's imagination - just like the content of the Bible I would hazzard.

I'm not an atheist I'm an agnostic, as I am neither blind nor ignorant; none of the theories of evolution (religious or otherwise) offer conclusive proof of being right so I'll just keep an open mind rather than being indoctrinated into believing any one of them. At least my "religion" doesn't kill people for having different beliefs.

[Stigter]

So 4 pages in, here is a WORD COUNT so far:

Blower = 3450
S4TAN = 2674

[Dom81]

This is the same case with the rest of the atheists that support you on here, Lifestyle Preservation

I'm one of those atheists, but I still don't know why a label is needed for someone who simply rejects a doctorine. I also choose to reject cigarettes, socks with sandals, package holidays and living outside the capital, but none of those come with epithets...

Anyhow, back to the point. How, Blower, do you know my lifestyle? Unless you're going to do another grammatical backtrack, the sentence implies that I as an atheist "have a lifestyle to maintain and the thought of a devine creator getting his foot in the door would seriously force you to consider how you are living out your life". I'm not going to give you any insight whatsoever into my family life, other than to say you've made yet another sweeping and wholly incorrect statement.

[CliveH]

yep, he does that all the time!

[S4TAN]

Ok sir, as I simply stated before, you have a lifestyle to maintain and the thought of a devine creator getting his foot in the door would seriously force you to consider how you are living out your life. This is the same case with the rest of the atheists that support you on here, Lifestyle Preservation. Like I said before, since nobody has shown me any errors, contradictions or faults in the "bible comic book" even though it was tried, there is no reason for me to put it down and doubt it.

You're wrong Blower - it has nothing to do with "lifestyle preservation" - that's very presumptuous on your behalf (and a little arrogant - the kind of arrogance borne of a pious and "holier than thou" attitude).

I can assure you that if I had tangible evidence for the existence of a god (your version of god, any version of god) I would be first in line at church, temple, or whatever building this god would demand our worship in - but as I don't have any evidence (and from what I see of the world today there is more than enough evidence to indicate a complete absence of ANY god whatsoever) then I choose the common-sense approach, and go with my instinct.

You on the other hand are a slave to blind-faith - in the same way that you're so convinced that non-believers must be trying to preserve some kind of sinful lifestyle and have fear of "letting in" your lord lest it inhibits said lifestyle I would conclude that you have an innate need to believe in something, and an abject fear of your own mortality - you can't live your life without having an instruction book in front of you, telling you what you can, and can't, do (in your case it's the bible, for others the koran, and yet others the torah etc), and you dread the concept of oblivion at the point of death - in an indirect and subtle way it's a simple method for absolving yourself of any responsibility for making your own decisions and relying on your own judgement: thus enters your god - you hand that responsibility over to an organised religion, they tell you what's allowed and what isn't and that if you're a good boy you'll have an eternal afterlife of being patted on the head for being a good boy.

In exactly the same way that you're convinced I'm trying to preserve a lifestyle I am convinced that you're afraid of the unknown, you simply can't comprehend it and you have a childlike need to assuage your fears, doubts and unknowns with the 'sticking plaster' of church/god.

If I were to be classed as anything I would say I'm an agnostic - agnostic in the sense that I don't think we can possibly know "what it's all about" beyond a certain point.

The problem with your religion (like all the others) is that they are totally anthropomorphic - i.e. they are ALL, without exception, centred around humankind. This is hugely arrogant of man when you consider that you live on a planet orbiting a small star in a galaxy containing ~200billion other stars, in a universe of 100billion other galaxies (at the latest observed estimate) - a universe that, I might add, is expanding at an ever accelerating rate - a fact proven by the ever increasing red-shift in the received wavelengths from the most distant observable galaxies - and on that note: an accelerating expanding universe implies that the universe was smaller in the past and will be bigger in the future - extrapolating backwards in time leads to the initial zero-point singularity - the 'seed' of the big-bang - calculated to have occurred 13.7billion years ago. Need proof? Ok - Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (or CMB) - easily observable by anyone who detunes a TV channel or radio station - the static you hear and see is the 3deg kelvin 'heat' glow of the big-bang explosion that is still rippling through the universe - the current 3deg kelvin temperature matches exactly with the expansion rate calculations for the age of the universe being at 13.7billion years due to the expansion of the underlying space/time fabric within which all energy and matter (including dark energy and dark matter) resides.

Don't believe the universe is expanding? Ok - then investigate the doppler effect - this is a well known and observable scientific truth; it affects sound waves and electromagnetic waves in the same way - a sound or light source coming towards you has it's waves 'squashed up' (blue-shifted) - and a source moving away from you has it's waves 'stretched out' (red-shifted) ... the fact that the furthest observable galaxies have their electromagnetic spectrums heavily red-shifted proves the universe is expanding, and has been for billions of years. It also proves that the universe's expansion rate is not a constant velocity, it's accelerating - the red-shift is exponentially higher the further out the observations are made.

As an aside; your god supposedly created 'everything' in seven days - on which day did ite create the 20,000 million trillion other stars out there ...? And why did it leave the CMB there - was it a mistake? (according to you god doesn't make mistakes) - if not a mistake then what's it for? (don't try and deny the CMB - it's there, in fact it's everywhere, in a mostly uniform state apart from a few crucial energy-density fluctuations which are echoes of the slight irregularities in the early universe that were essential for the formation and accretion of matter, matter which then led to the formation of galaxies/stars/planets - proof for it's existence is easily and readily available to you as I explained above - as is proof for the expansion of the universe). Also, why did your god make such an indescribably vast and ever accelerating/expanding universe? What's the point of all that space and all those other galaxies/stars/planets if this whole universe is just about 'us' mere humans?

Will you now deny these proven physical principles of doppler shift and residual radiation? Will you deny the speed of light and the relationship between matter and energy proven by Einstein et al?

I look forward to the day that extraterrestrial life is confirmed - a day that christianity fears terribly. What explanations will you come up with then I wonder? "Ummm ... god made man in his image, and he made aliens in the image of his Mrs..." maybe?

It's been calculated that there are 10,000 intelligent civilisations in just our little galaxy - let alone the other 100billion galaxies out there (yes Blower - those other galaxies are REAL - they can be SEEN!) - but the distances involved are so mind-bendingly vast that it's wholly unlikely we'll ever be able to physically meet - but we may one day 'catch' their communications signals (although a 2-way converstion would no doubt take many tens or hundreds of years to conduct)

Why did your god make all this space Blower? Indeed - why did it make all the other galaxies/stars/planets - even the other planets in our own poxy little back-water solar system? Why make the asteroid belt? Why make comets? These things hurtle around with the power to destroy planets and wipe out all life - is your god gambling with our existence? Or does it control the comets/asteroids/meteors for a bit of fun - and will avert one heading straight for us at the last minute? Quasars and black-holes are now observed features of the universe - so why make them? They are enormously destructive entities - so what's their point in your god's grand plan?

Get the point Blower? As I said - your religion (like the others) is incredibly arrogant and self-centred - it assumes that man has some special place in your god's 'heart', and that we live on a special planet - what about all the other multiple trillions of planets that are undoubtedly 'out there'? Is your god 'watching' over them too, and playing its games of demanded alliegance and obeyance with their inhabitants?

Or will you even be so foolish to deny the existence of these other galaxies/stars/planets - will you cry that they're all "the devils work!"?

Take your head out of the bible, open your mind, wake up to the truths that are out there - don't be afraid, embrace them. You don't need to stick your head in the sand of organised religion to take away your fears - that path only leads to the deliberately ignorant state of denial in which your mind currently resides.

[Turbo Joe]

Behold the stupidity of the evolutionist. Show an evolutionist a statue of for example a man and ask him if the statue evolved or was it designed. Straight away he'll tell you not to be so stupid, of course it was designed, no natural processes could ever form the contors, the angles and the detailed specifics on the statue. No natural process could ever make such a complex structure. The structure is too complicated to have happened by chance.

Then place the actual living man next to the statue who made it and ask him, did he evolve or was he designed? He will now reply, "he must have evolved"?????? Note the sheer utter foolishness.

Wait, you recognised the statue as being a structure to which no natural process could produce because of its complexity and specific detail but now we place a man next to it bearing in mind that the human body is 1000s of times more complicated with a skeletal system, a respiratory system, a muscular system, a complex set of organs which in themselves run complex systems, a heart which circulates the life giving force called the blood, throughout the entire body etc, you believe, that this evolved by chance over millions of years? Are you dumb in any other area?