How high can the V10 rev?

5.0 V10 50v biturbo - 571 bhp
HPsauce
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by HPsauce » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:40 pm

welwynnick wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:19 pm
It turns out the streets aren't paved with gold, and Audi V10's aren't actually Lamborghini engines after all.
That's been known for ages, but it doesn't stop people selling V10 Audis claiming they are the same. :rant:

perthwaRS6
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by perthwaRS6 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:11 pm

Hi All,
If you took a stock RS6 5 litre V10 engine which I believe is a stronger engine than the stock Audi/Lamborghini 5.2 V10 , it can be twin turboed easily to 1200 bhp- stage 2.

With the same specs as an Underground Racing Pro line built motor and turbos, Stage 3 then it could easily produce 1600 bhp.

https://www.undergroundracing.com/index ... allardo-tt

With the RS6 V10, the limiting factor is not the engine, but where to fit the 62 mm turbos and associated intercooler plumbing under the bonnet.

For the stage 3 system- 1600bhp, need additional injectors in the manifold plus fuel system plus stand alone piggy back motec off the standard Bosch Med9 ecu's plus modified tcu for boost by gear.

Of course with these power levels you would need a beefed up auto gear box, I daresay!
just my two cents worth,
cheers,
john
2009 RS6 sedan,5.0L FSI V10,phantom black,730bhp-98 octane,750bhp-104 octane,APR stage 1 map,MTM/Performance Friction 405mm front rotors,JCFabweld sports exhaust,MRC filters,Michelin PSS.
2011 Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4 coupe,5.2L V10 TT UGR 800-1250whp, e-gear 6 speed,390 mm Alcon Racing front rotors, grey.
1969 E type Jaguar convertible with 5.2L 6 cylinder Rob Beere Racing engine,356 bhp-415 ft-lbs,midnight blue-old school but beautiful

welwynnick
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by welwynnick » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:00 am

perthwaRS6 wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:11 pm
If you took a stock RS6 5 litre V10 engine which I believe is a stronger engine than the stock Audi/Lamborghini 5.2 V10 , it can be twin turboed easily to 1200 bhp- stage 2.
The advantage that the RS6 engine has over the Lambo is the lower compression ratio - 10.5 against 12.5. Therefore ambitious tuners like THT and Madness can run 2 bar boost on stock engines, and they seem to hold together at 1.4kNm, which is amazing.

Lambo / R8 tuners never seem to go above 0.5 - 0.6 bar on stock engines - they get lots of power from high revs instead.

The RS6 is not so high-revving - it has to make do with cast pistons, cracked rods, inferior valve gear and heads etc, so in that respect it's a weaker engine. That's what this thread is about.

That's a very nice garage you have there, though. As far as the V10 is concerned, you seem to have the best of both worlds.

Nick

welwynnick
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Piston Speed

Post by welwynnick » Sat May 09, 2020 3:23 pm

I forgot to mention something else a while back. But I'm not sure if it's a claim to fame, or a liability. It's piston speed.
The R8 5.2 V10 holds the record for the highest mean piston speed of any production road car ever: 92.8mm x 8.7krpm / 30 = 26.9 m/s
How high is that? Only top fuel dragsters go higher, and then only for a few hundred revolutions.
The only other road car engine close is the Honda S2000 at 25.2 m/s, and that's a typical value for highly tuned bikes and racing cars, including F1.
That's not to say the best road cars are anywhere near F1 technology - F1 pistons survive more than double the acceleration, and the valve gear even more so.
Although a handful of road car engines do rev higher than the R8, none have higher piston speed, not even the Aston Martin Valkyrie.
So the V10 adds high piston speed to high BMEP, high revs, high torque and high power.
So you'd think it would be fragile, but who ever said that about it?
Some people call it a glass engine, but the Kolben Schmitt pistons and the Alusil block must be doing something right if the only thing people really worry about is a rubber O-ring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F20C_engine
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... _to_f1.htm
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=85349

Nick

perthwaRS6
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by perthwaRS6 » Wed May 13, 2020 8:36 am

Hi Nick, :bigwave:
very informative post on the mean piston speed of the R8V10 5.2 engine. I assume this mean piston speed would also apply to the 5.2V10 engine in the Gallardo and the Huracan. Phenomenal reliability as I have not heard of any oem Gallardo/Huracan or V10 R8 blowing up their engines. But there are protection rpm limits when engine is cold as ecus wont let engine rpm exceed 6000rpm.

My Gallardo UGR TT 5.2V10 stage 3 has the same rev limits as stock with highest being 8650rpm in third gear. Max power is 1275 rwhp/1600bhp/1900Nm engine with 20 psi and has run to 8400 rpm rev limited in 6th gear (203 mph in 18 seconds) on 1000 metre standing start runway sprints. 62 mm turbos, pro line race built engine and compression ratio of 9.5:1. The lambo is a daily driver but with boost turned down to 10 psi- 800 rwhp/1340Nm. UGR build is very reliable with 40,000+kms.

Thanks for compliment on the stable. If I could only keep one 'horse', it would be the E type which I have owned for 37 years. The jag is the only car I have modified that is now worth more than what I have spent on it. :bowdown:
All the others have been money pits, but worth every cent!
Gratuitous pic of 'stable' attached in a very messy stable! Wifey not impressed with the messy stable and my claims that I will tidy it up one day :bash:

cheers.
john
Attachments
home garage february 2020.jpg
2009 RS6 sedan,5.0L FSI V10,phantom black,730bhp-98 octane,750bhp-104 octane,APR stage 1 map,MTM/Performance Friction 405mm front rotors,JCFabweld sports exhaust,MRC filters,Michelin PSS.
2011 Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4 coupe,5.2L V10 TT UGR 800-1250whp, e-gear 6 speed,390 mm Alcon Racing front rotors, grey.
1969 E type Jaguar convertible with 5.2L 6 cylinder Rob Beere Racing engine,356 bhp-415 ft-lbs,midnight blue-old school but beautiful

welwynnick
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by welwynnick » Wed May 13, 2020 3:29 pm

Hi John,

Yes, that's a very fine stable. You're in Australia aren't you?

I believe the R8 red line is a bit higher than the Gallardo - 8700 vs 8500 - so the Gallardo piston speed is 26.3 m/s. Still very high.

1600 crank hp is serious power, but your torque figures really opened my eyes. Those are huge figures.

Sounds like UGR would call yours a stage 3 engine. Do you need to run racing fuel to get 1275whp / 1900 Nm?

Slide1.JPG

I got bored and made a table of the best naturally aspirated engines. The Gallardo 5.2 isn't quite at the top, but it's still a very healthy engine indeed.

By the way, several 5.0 Gallardo engines broke because the cracked-forged con-rods let go, but the "proper" rods on the 5.2 seem to be fine.

Your car's a great example of the benefits of reduced compression ratio. Engines with stock internals only run half a bar boost.

Nick

PS. IMHO wifey should probably count her blessings!

welwynnick
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by welwynnick » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:54 pm

It doesn't really relate to the RS6, but I couldn't resist copying the power and torque curves for the APR tune on the R8 V10. This engine has several production versions, ranging from 540 to 610 PS, but the APR tune gives the same result for each one, showing that Audi themselves made software rather than hardware changes. APR extracted as much power as the Huracan Evo, but not as much torque, so the Lambo probably has some hardware changes as well.

APR V10 ECU Tuine.png

I updated my engine chart with all the best engines I could think of (except Hondas) and the hyper-cars just about rule the roost. The Ferrari 458 has the highest BMEP, though several rolling road tests suggest Ferrari's claims are exaggerated, and this contrasts with the consistently understated claims by all German manufacturers. Apart from the long stroke, the Huracan sits right alongside the best of the best, and the APR tuned engine stands out with peak power and torque at 9000 and 7000 rpm. Forgetting track-day specials with motor-bike engines for a moment, I think those are currently the highest speeds for any road car engine.

Engines 200710.JPG

Yes, it's not comparing like-with-like, and maybe APR are compromising reliability, but all they did was reprogram the ECU & TCU. It shows that even the 540 engine has got the top-end and bottom-end fundamentals right. 10 cylinders, four valves, four camshafts, forged pistons, rods and crank, and no titanium or billet parts in sight.

welwynnick
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by welwynnick » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:39 am

Now that I have an R8 engine, the other thing I've been doing recently is comparing the RS6 and Lambo / R8 engines, and I think I've been able to answer my original question about whether the RS6 V10 was capable of revving to 8000rpm. Why would that matter? Look in the list of engines in the previous post. They're the engines that everyone gets excited about these days, the engines with character, the engines that make a car, and make you drive for the sake of driving. They all sound great (GT3, 812, LFA, M5, Huracan etc - the sort of cars where people say they're worth it for the engine alone) they all happen to have high bmep, high specific outputs, and they all rev very high - 8000 to 9000 rpm.

The easy thing to get out the way is that the 5.0 RS6 is closely related to the R8 / Gallardo / Huracan 5.2, and is not closely related to the older Gallardo 5.0.
Seen side by side, you'd say that the similarities were striking, but the older engine has 88mm bore centres, and the newer one is 90mm - like all 90-degree VAG engines.

Looking externally, the engines are similar, but have the following differences:

The R8 has a dual clutch gearbox, so the rear timing cover is completely different to match (but is interchangeable with the RS6 timing cover).
The R8 has bearing housings for the prop-shaft to the front axle, and the RS6 does not.
The R8 starter motor is behind the engine, but alongside on the RS6.
The R8 power steering pump is behind the engine, but alongside on the RS6.
The R8 has a stiffening web to the bellhousing flange on the block girdle, but the RS6 does not.

Apart from that, they're very similar. For comparison, here's the S8 5.2 V10, which has a wet sump:

Audi S8 engine RHS.jpg

Here is the Gallardo / Huracan / R8 5.2 V10, with the dry sump removed. The red arrow shows the stiffening web that the RS6 doesn't have:

R8 RHS (Web).jpg

And here is the RS6 5.2 V10, which has a dry sump:

RS6-1.png

They're all quite similar, but the RS6 bottom end is much more like the R8 than the S8. You can even see a row of 6 cross-bolts right at the bottom. These hold the cast iron bearing cap
inserts more securely into the lower block girdle or bed plate. Every V10 has a block girdle with cast iron inserts (stiffer than alloy, and lower thermal expansion). This all gives a very strong and stable bottom end, one that UGR took to over 2300whp in 2015 before they introduced their billet block.

The current Lambo and Ferrari and Mercedes V12 engines also have block girdles, but the Italian engines don't have the cast iron inserts or the additional cross bolts. The S4, S5, S6, S8, RS4, RS5, RS6 C7 and RS7 C7 also have block girdles, but don't have a dry sump or cross bolting. Cross-bolting is a typical construction technique for high performance V engines that have conventional deep skirt block and individual bearing caps, and this strengthens the bottom end. It's used on all the recent Audi / BMW / Bentley / Lamborghini / Mercedes / Porsche twin turbo V8's.

Almost all road car engines are wet-sumped, including the RS4 & S6, and at high revs the oil tends to froth, getting air into the oil, which obviously hurts the lubrication. Dry sumping is a cost-no-object solution that helps to get round this by minimising the frothing in the crankcase in the first place, and with an air-oil separator in the return to the oil tank. The outlet to the pump is taken from the bottom of the tank and gives the best possible oil feed, especially under sustained high g-forces. Keeping air out of the oil feed to the bearings at high engine speeds is great way of safeguarding a high-performance engine, and is generally used on racing engines, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, the R8 V8 & V10 - and the RS6 V10.

A block girdle is also a preferred, cost-no-object solution, but only the Lambo/R8 V10 and RS6 V10 have a block girdle AND cast iron inserts AND cross bolting. They also have a shallow cast alloy oil tray with individual compartments for each crank throw that forms part of the structure of the block and further strengthens the girdle from underneath. Indeed, this bottom cover is bolted onto the girdle by the same 24 x 10mm bolts that secure the block girdle, plus the bolts around the edge, so the girdle is sandwiched between the bottom cover and the block. Ever noticed those bolts heads sticking out of the bottom of the engine? They hold the whole of the bottom end together.

This means the crankshaft is to all intents and purposes encased in one big solid alloy casting that is only cut way to allow just enough room for the crankshaft and con rods to move, and no more, and this is only possible with a dry sump. To illustrate this, here is the R8 / Huracan girdle, which is the same as the RS6 except for the few differences that I listed at the top:

Gallardo 5.2 Bed Plate upper.jpg
Gallardo 5.2 Bed Plate Lower.jpg

By contrast here are the S6 and RS4 girdles respectively - very similar and very good, but not the same as the R8 / Lambo:

Audi S6 V10 Block Girdle 2M.jpg
RS4 block girdle clear.jpg

What does this mean? The RS6 doesn't just have a good bottom end, I think it's the best.

Internals next.
Last edited by welwynnick on Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 7 times in total.

welwynnick
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by welwynnick » Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:20 pm

In spite of VAG's profligate parts engineering (for example, exhaust valve 06D 109 611 H is used on almost everything from the VW Transporter to the Lambo Huracan) there are differences between the R8 and RS6 internals: crankshaft, connecting rods, pistons, camshafts, timing gear, that sort of thing.

Firstly, the simple things: the RS6 C6 has the same bore and stroke as the RS6 C7 (84.5 x 89) and is different to all the other 4.2 & 5.2 engines (84.5 x 92.8mm).
The compression ratio is also reduced from 12.5 to 10.5 due to the (modest) forced induction.
The RS6 has long 154mm connecting rods like the other 90 deg V engines (except the 2.8 V6). Long rods are a good thing, as they tend to reduce side thrust, and acceleration at TDC.
The crankshaft obviously has a shorter throw than the R8, but there are some interesting differences elsewhere in the family.

A 90-degree V8 with conventional dual plane crank has even firing intervals and ideal primary and secondary balance. A 90-degree V10 is more complicated, and there are some compromises. Even firing intervals require split pin big ends, like V6's, but not as bad. Straight pin big ends are stronger, but result in uneven firing intervals. The Gallardo 5.0 had split pins, and sounded great. The Gallardo, Huracan and R8 5.2's had straight pin cranks, and are stronger, but don't sound quite the same.

For the sake of refinement, the S6 & S8 5.2's had split pins (and a balance shaft). Like the others, it's a forged steel crank with lightened big ends, but only has 6 counter-weights (like most V8's including the RS4) and it revs to 7200 rpm:

Crank Audi S6.png

Racing engines, and the best high-performance engines, are generally fully counterweighted, with a counterweight on each side of each main bearing journal. This is nothing to do with balancing the crank, it reduces the reciprocating load on the main journals. The Gallardo 5.0 engine had split pins like the S6, but it's fully counterweighted, and this damaged example used to rev to 8000 rpm:

Crank Gallardo.jpg

The Gallardo/Huracan/R8 5.2 crank is also fully counterweighted, but it has straight pins. The firing order isn't even, but the crank is stronger, and revs to 8500 rpm:

Crank Huracan.jpg

And what of the RS6? It took me a long time to find a picture of the RS6 crank, but I eventually found this. Simply put, besides the 89m stroke it looks the same as the R8, fully counterweighted and with lightened, straight pin big ends. The timing chain cogs have the same number of teeth, and the nose and tail bolt patterns are the same. As I mentioned before, the RS6 flex plate bolts right up to the R8 crank. It's the best of breed in other words, much better than the S6, and perhaps even better than the RS4:

Crank RS6 s-l1600.jpg

Having used basically the same block and dry sump, one has to wonder why Audi didn't go the whole hog and simply fit the Lambo crank to the RS6 and make that a 5.2 as well? The shorter stroke does have a few advantages. It reduces the rod angularity, which reduces the side thrust on the piston, which is beneficial for a highly (?) loaded turbo engine. There's also room to make the piston longer, which further protects against side thrust. It also reduces piston speed. Maybe Audi tried a 5.2 twin turbo and found that it wore out too fast. I doubt that; I suspect it was probably the association with the Gallardo 5.0 V10 at the time.

The area where the R8 scores over the RS6 is just the same as the RS4 against the S4. The lesser engines have hypereutectic cast pistons and sintered rods, while the high revving engines had forged rods and pistons. I think that would be the place to start with the RS6. The other upgrade would be the valve springs. VAG use the same 06E 109 623 inlet & exhaust valve spring across a wide range of R, S and RS motors, but the RS6 uses the weaker 06F 109 623 used on regular engines and is actually inferior to the S6. A high revving RS6 would definitely need a spring upgrade.

Then what? The stock RS6 revs to 6700, but stage 2 tuning typically lifts that to 7200 rpm. I think there's a lot more potential though. The Gallardo 5.0 revs to 8000 with a split pin crank and sintered con rods. The RS4 revs to 8500 with a partially counterweighted crank and a wet sump. The R8 revs to 8700 with a longer stroke. Contrary to the first post in this thread, I'm sure that with the right internals the RS6 V10 is indeed capable of revving to 8000 rpm, and probably more.

Nick
Last edited by welwynnick on Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

welwynnick
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Re: How high can the V10 rev?

Post by welwynnick » Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:51 pm

Just thinking out loud here, for a moment. A couple of questions came to mind, and I'm not sure what the answers are.

Could you fit R8 crank, rods and pistons into an RS6 engine? Probably, as long as you carry everything over.

Could you rebuild an R8 engine using an RS6 block? Probably not, except if the R8 girdle was used, and then it would have to be line-bored. So an S6 block might even work then??

Edit: On closer inspection, the S8 block has a tunnel in the Vee for the balance shaft. The R8 block does not, and I presume the RS6 doesn't either.

?:-) Nick

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