Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

4.2 V8 32v Naturally Aspirated - 414 bhp
flylife2k
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Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:46 pm

A bit of information regarding my RS4 issue i'm experiencing, and definately worth having in the archive...

I dont drive it much but towards the back end of last year I noticed my RS4 was intermittently not starting on first attempt, this was only intermittent initially but it gradually became more and more frequent basically ALL the symptoms of a started motor on its way out, more progressive on cold mornings and still hearing the relays clicking before it eventually fired up, was always at the back of my mind to sort, would have even attempted it myself but work was consuming a fair amount of my time and family life. Scanned it a few times with VCDS and showed the below again leading me to starter.,.

Address 01: Engine Labels:. 079-910-560-BNS1.lblno
Part No SW: 8E1 910 560 HW: 8E1 907 560
Component: 4.2L V8/4V FSI ª0080
Revision: --H03--- Serial number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Coding: 01040003180F0160
Shop #: WSC 00029 210 90976
VCID: 63C22305A2BE4A5EF7-8036

1 Fault Found:
012424 - Starter Relay
P3088 - 001 - Electrical Malfunction - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 26
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 132432 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Load: 0.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 14.0°C
Temperature: 15.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 980.0 mbar
Voltage: 11.049 V

Readiness: 0000 0000

So basically started motor. Kept delaying it, until I needed to use it early morning and it would just not start (I was expecting this to happen to be honest if I didnt get it sorted), as frustrated as I was I just booked it in for a change at Audi (and I have always been the one stating 'avoid stealers at all cost'! but I just did not have the time nor the patience unfortunately)

Anyway, If I havent bored you yet well done, grab a coffee and please keep reading, this is the interesting bit...

So in it went to audi, I told them it was only occasionally 'intermittently' taking an age to start and was most likely the starter motor, so they went with the cheaper option first and changed the relays but no joy so they proceeded to change the starter motor. Picked it up... nice strong start on first tap, kids were with me so we stopped at Nandos for some... er chicken. Went back to the car and... lo and behold the thing wouldn't start :audibash: !! Was at it for half an hour but no joy. Unfortunately it was past Audi closing time but fortunately missus was in her car so abandoned it and went back home. A bit of a rant at Audi the next morning and a few apologies my way, Audi arranged for it to be picked up and brought back.

I know this is getting lengthy, so i'll trim down as much as possiible...

car went back and forth a good few times more (!!!!), after Audi had informed me each time it had been 'tested several times and all was now fine', once failing to start on the petrol forecourt and once them telling me it was a faulty earth cable (possible scenario I know)!
After having a good rant again, and Audi extending a small discount, they kept it in for a good few weeks, and finally updating me - the RS specialist had been discussing with Audi Germany and finally told me they are not 100% on the reason but believe the issue lies in the engine. No noises at all from the engine and drives superbly but they found the crankshaft was stopping in the exact same spot when the engine was turned off, They drained\filtered the oil but found no particles (bearing\journals i'm thinking). 2 Mechanics working on it, they informed me moving the car just slightly in gear to move the crankshaft was enough to allow the engine to start! Resistance apparently which I assume is putting a large load on the starter motor which is just not big enough to overcome the resistance.

They told me the next step would be to open the engine (Oil pan first I assumed) and investigate.... this is where I pulled the plug due to how much it could cost and 'started\drove' it back -

drove like a dream. Anyway booked it in with a renound RS specialist (well known) who was just as surprised after I told him the full story, he's been looking at it for a good few months now, but unable to find the culprit as of yet. He's told me there is no huge difference from a restistance perspective when turning the crankshaft manually - compared it with another RS4 he had! I suggested we could be more specific and try a torque beam style wrench so we have exact figures for torque required, as I dont know 'how much' is 'too much' for the starter to handle. This would also confirm any areas in crankshaft rotation which were showing more resistance, if any.

It was a first for Audi and the specialist, neitther have i come across such a situation being reported by anyone, anywhere although there are a few posts stateside of alternators needing upgrading after an engine swap, but thats a different stuation.
Always well maintained, and not the first high revving engine i've owned so oil has always been top priority,

thoughts chaps?

cherub72
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Location: West London

Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by cherub72 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:06 pm

I had loads of issues with mine starting, Audi couldn't find a fault but it kept failing to start. After being told loads of times that they couldn't see a fault on the computer I lost my rag and told them to give to a mechanic, not a laptop jockey and get them to drive it for a few days.
As if by magic it failed on their mechanic and it was decided that it needed a starter. When they took the starter off the electrical plug fell apart as it had rusted inside. They replaced that part of the loom and the starter and it's been fine for the last 9 years. I've never been back to West London Audi
RS4 Cabriolet - Phantom Black with Exclusive interior

flylife2k
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:12 am

Wish it had been something similar but not unfortunately, it would have saved me the headache! Just hope it isnt the engine!

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Surrey Sam
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by Surrey Sam » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:19 am

Is it throwing the same fault code still?
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mikep99
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by mikep99 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:21 am

and can you confirm which relays were changed please?

Mike

flylife2k
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:14 pm

Surrey Sam wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:19 am
Is it throwing the same fault code still?
Yes I believe so but I have each scan saved, i'll check and confirm later this afternoon :thumbs:
mikep99 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:21 am
and can you confirm which relays were changed please?

Mike
Yes sure, i'll check the receipt later and report back :thumbs:

mikep99
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by mikep99 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:36 pm

Cheers bud

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flylife2k
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:40 pm

Sam still to check the printouts but found something very confusing in both the receipts I got (2 separate receipts due to the separate bits of work after it went back and forth a few times)...

Image
Image

Although I was told both relays were changed, looking at both receipts above I cant quite tell exactly which relays these parts acually are and also the part number itself seems to be the same on each just the variation is different..

A431 951 253 G
408767/RELAY
480794/RELAY

Can someone please clarify this for me?
thanks
Tiff

mikep99
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by mikep99 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:06 am

The 431951253G relay relates to the starter motor relay -
https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+rs4+a ... -937030/#2
https://audi.7zap.com/en/rdw/audi+rs4+a ... -937000/#3
I'm confused as to where this relay is actually located!!
Its not under the ecu in the plenum chamber (on my car anyway).
I'm not sure what the 480767 & 480794 numbers relate to.

Mike

flylife2k
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:34 pm

Thank you Mike, read there was 2 relays under the drivers side scuttle panel (under the ECU), not sure what the second one is? Although Audi have stated they have replaced the relays(?) the one I believe is the starter did still look like it had not been removed (screws were still rusty)

Tiff

Softishman
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by Softishman » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:54 pm

I had a bad connection were you put starter cables under the hood were the battery is on A4. Remove the blac plastic cover and you will see two thick cables bolted togehter, one was loose there for me causing it to only start sometimes...
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flylife2k
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:59 pm

thank you, i'll mention it when I speak to him... it's another thing to check so that's good

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Surrey Sam
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by Surrey Sam » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:03 pm

flylife2k wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:34 pm
Thank you Mike, read there was 2 relays under the drivers side scuttle panel (under the ECU), not sure what the second one is? Although Audi have stated they have replaced the relays(?) the one I believe is the starter did still look like it had not been removed (screws were still rusty)

Tiff
There is some crossover info from another thread going on - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=118912

From your part numbers on the receipts it looks like they've replaced the ones under the steering column, can't explain the additional code difference though? So it's possible they put the new relays in the wrong location, as there are a few of them in row. Might be worth dropping the lower footwell cover and taking a look up in there to try find the relay location as pictured in the linked thread above.

Fault code info would still be helpful :thumbs:
Sepang Blue B8 RS4, MY14, All option packs, B&O, Adv Key, Adapt Cruise, Pan Roof, Akrapovic Titanium Exhaust, + more.
Previous - Sprint Blue B7 RS4 Avant, Ceramics, Sunroof, SS+, Buckets, FBSW, Bluetooth, 2010+ RNSe
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mikep99
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by mikep99 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:59 pm

Cheers Sam,
Yep, there's some confusion!!
Ideally, it's be good to know what each of the relays is for, the ones under the scuttle and the ones under the steering wheel.
Unfortunately, Im away from the car at the moment but the errors I randomly get are 'starter relay' and the code.
Be great if we knew exactly which relays related to which circuit.

Thanks in advance
Mike

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flylife2k
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Re: Starting issue... but not the starter!!!

Post by flylife2k » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:32 am

Yes i've noticed there are a few starting related posts as of late, must be the weather I guess

I have 4 separate scans over a period of 8 months with the starter relay error appearing on each scan after issue was experienced (reset each time) however on the last scan it reported 2 errors but this 'Voltage too Low' error is expected I guess - battery has also been changed to rule this out but no joy unfortunately

005634 - Power Supply Terminal 30
2 Faults Found:
012424 - Starter Relay
P3088 - 001 - Electrical Malfunction
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 7
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 135514 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Load: 0.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 98.0°C
Temperature: 45.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 960.0 mbar
Voltage: 12.319 V

005634 - Power Supply Terminal 30
P1602 - 002 - Voltage too Low - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 0 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Load: 0.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: -40.0°C
Temperature: -40.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 0.0 mbar
Voltage: 0.000 V

Readiness: 0010 1000

Thanks
Tiff

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