RS4 BRAKE JUDDER

[johnnydog]

I would be interested to know how or what the likelihood of damaging your ceramic discs would be....a stone possibly that manages to get into the caliper or behind the backplate that may score the disc, but I would think that chance is minimal... Other than that carelessness whilst servicing, but again, I think the chances of that are remote....

[stu]

Quiet work day so I thought I'd read the thread as it's an interesting one. I better clear something up for posterity's sake.

[…] When I asked I was told that there was no specific bedding in procedure for the discs other than to go easy on them for a while. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that scanned pdf circulating on here is a hoax so will not be doing that to my new discs and pads. How could any car manufacturer expect their customers to do that, let alone Audi.[…]

The scanned PDF floating around (with the oily fingerprint to the side) was originally uploaded by me. I acquired the same checklist protocol from two independent sources. I've attached the PDF again for handiness.

The first source was a forum member who had a translated version and PM'd it to me (thanks 's', I won't drag you into this!). I used it for my first set of discs. The second source was the workshop manager at my dealership. That's the one you see now.

Audi's official (if slightly weird) checklist is very real. My dealership tried to use it against me when I sought replacement of the juddering discs under parts warranty first time around - until they got an earful of me reciting the protocol right back at them! They sheepishly agreed that maybe I did indeed follow the protocol.

For disc set number two (which were given to me under the parts warranty after a long battle - they were gits) - the dealership insisted that they do the bedding in themselves. I reluctantly agreed and told them they didn't stand a chance doing it on any road anywhere during business hours. But I left it with them anyway and tracked the car with GPS as I was genuinely intrigued as to how they'd manage it. In brief: they didn't bother their arses. I could see that from the odometer, but the GPS showed me exactly where they took the car and at what speed. Nice ammunition for excellent customer service ever after. We get on great now

After their bedding in fail I asked for and was given the paper copy by the workshop manager so I could do it myself and hand the completed form back to them. It contains exactly the same information that was translated from the earlier german language version. I popped in my document scanner before scribbling on it.

I'm not qualified / experienced enough to comment on the validity of the procedure. Wiser and more experienced members on here think it's a daft procedure but I did it anyway.

So I've done the bedding in protocol three times. For me, following it the letter didn't result in long lasting judder free brakes, but it did eliminate one excuse of many for the dealers/Audi UK to ignore the parts warranty and wipe their hands of the problem. And now I'm on ceramics.

It can't be done on anything else than empty roads. A perfect run through will take nearly 80 miles. Madness, I know

just because there is a thread on here does not make it fact.

Yup, can't argue with that.

[Sc0rian]

it is a worry reading all the issues people have had with normal brakes on a RS4. I better take this into account when buying one, looks like ceramic's is the only fix. Its extremely odd, I cannot believe no one has been able to pin the issue down, thats madness. It seems like the disc wraps over time, like a sticky caliper which causes the disc to get out of shape after a mileage. I wouldn't expect this issue with a RS4 and this many people though.

Audi obviously know its a fault, since a few people on here have had ceramic brakes on goodwill. I really should get a rs4 with full history at audi, so if I do get a issue hopefully I will get ceramic's at goodwill as well. Probably easier to find a car with ceramic's in the first place.

edit: fixed a random sentence I cannot even make sense off. Long day

[stu]

it is a worry reading all the issues people have had with normal brakes on a RS4. I better take this into account when buying one, looks like ceramic's is the only fix. Its extremely odd, I cannot believe no one has been able to pin the issue down, thats madness. It seems like the disc wraps over time, like a sticky caliper which causes the disc to get out of shape after a mileage. I wouldn't expect this issue with a RS4 and this many people though.

They obviously know its a fault, since a few people on here have had ceramic brakes on goodwill. I really should get a rs4 with full history at audi, so if I do get a issue hopefully I will get ceramic's at goodwill as well. But I do want to go down a pocket full of money to get them. Probably easier to find a car with ceramic's in the first place.

Please don't be put off!! A very small percentage of owners experience judder. Most of those owners however get on the internet and post about it. It's natural behaviour. That's the internet for you. And it's kind of why I haven't written anything about my ceramics until a few weeks ago.

I'm trying to think of a way to rationalise all this brake trouble....
- looks like there were around 3,000 B7 RS4s sold in this country (howmanyleft)
- let's say 5% have brake problems as some point. That's 150.
- a third of those are fanatics and computer literate and post about it on the internet
- we (plus AudiSRS?) would be deluged with disgruntled RS4 owners.
- this therefore squeues the reality of RS4 ownership.

Take this poorly thought out post with a huge pinch of salt. It's completely made up. It doesn't help the actual people who have a problem with their brakes. But you get my gist hopefully.

[KernowPete]

Stu's right, it is the nature of forums such as this that folks post more about negative issues that they experience. To get help and advice for one and also some comfort too I suspect. That's why forums such as this are invaluable, especially to the likes of me who are still very new to the rarified (and slightly scary) world of performance car ownership. However it would be very easy to get entirely the wrong impression of these fabulous cars just from internet forums! Sure there are some real issues but they probably only affect a small percentage of the cars/owners out there.

Having said that, if like me you're one of the unlucky ones, the bloody brake judder is a proper PITA.

[Madmonkee]

^^ abuse them brakes, "fanny braking" causes judder for me. Real man braking, judder gone/drastically reduced.

[RichT128]

Agree with stu and kernowpete completely - even when the brake judder was driving me up the wall, I still loved the car so not having one was never an option. (And I found the forum looking for help so that's something else I see as a positive!)

[Sc0rian]

That is true Stu, it is only a small percentage. I have been wanting an RS4 for as long as I can remember. I normally go out and buy a car on first viewing, but this purchase is different. I want to find the right one at the right price, when I go and view one I will take make sure I am not that percentage of brake juddering because replacing brakes on a RS4 is not the first purchase list.

[MikeFish]

I don't think you should worry about it. My car didn't do it until I replaced the discs and pads 2 years into ownership. Buying a car that doesn't suffer from it doesn't mean it won't start to suffer if you use the brakes to lightly. As others have said hit those bad boys hard and you'll be ok. Think mine suffered cos I had new discs and was gently bedding them in, exactly as I bedded in the last set of pads, but this time I live in he sticks with lots of dual carriageways and roundabouts but barely any traffic so I only brake lightly on the approach to the roundabouts and rarely ever have to stop and give way at one.
Doesn't spoil the enjoyment, I can only feel it when braking,ight lay at high speed so if it annoys me I just brake harder or use the gears to slow down (which sounds amazing with a Tubi shouting at me).

[adsgreen]

^^ abuse them brakes, "fanny braking" causes judder for me. Real man braking, judder gone/drastically reduced.

+1.
Love the bit in the new m3 owners manual (sure it was that car but could be wrong) - something like "use the brakes in the manner to which the car is designed".

I'm hard on brakes and mine have lasted 25k now and (touch wood) no issues. Even the holes appear to be self cleaning. The hardest part is getting heat into the system so the funky chemical reactions can take place. Before that it's just ceramic pads scratching a metal disc... thats before we get onto the thorny subject of pad deposits.

[KernowPete]

Those of you that managed to eliminate/reduce your judder by 're-bedding in' your brakes, how did you do it? Did you follow the complete bedding in procedure again or just go out for a blast and do a load of hard stops? I have a long straight bit of A road near me that is quiet in the evenings so my plan is to go out, get everything up to temperature then just blast up and down doing as many hard stops as I can before I get bored. But do I need to let things cool down between stops (as per Audi procedure) or just do them back to back?

[TonyHayers]

In December I developed a really scary vibration/judder about a month ago. It only seemed to occur during light braking (e.g stopping starting in busy traffic), but was very loud and sounded very serious. I theorised (having read stuff on this forum of course!) that it was brake pad deposits on the discs - maybe caused from "sporty" driving and then parking without allowing enough cooling down time.

I basically drove about reasonably "sportily" for a good half hour to get everything nice and warm and then did about 5 lots of: hard braking from something like 80 down to 20mph then leaving it for a few minutes and repeating. Important not to brake to a complete stop and not quite so hard that ABS engages. Once done let the brakes cool down by some longish runs on the dual carriageway near me before parking up.

Once I did this, I've never had the problem reoccur.

HTH and YMMV

[KernowPete]

Thanks Tony. I've been having brake judder on and off for nearly two years now and have probably bored people to death with it on here. The problem I think for me is that its very difficult to drive the roads down here most days without a considerable amount of light braking, and also I have to ride the brakes pretty badly to negotiate the tricky entry into my garage. My new discs were fine at first then the problem resurfaced. I had them skimmed with the latest tech and its come back again. I can therefore only conclude that it's the way the car is being driven that brings the judder back. But if I can get rid of it again by doing similar to you then I'll hopefully know for sure.

[johnnydog]

Anyone wanting to know the reasons why Audi have the bedding in procedure for 'sportier driving', please read the very informative websites 1) powerbrake.co.za (brake tech), and stoptech.com I found these websites very informative regarding the whole aspect of brake judder - both adamantly say there is no such thing as warped discs, but the symptom is caused by brake pad deposits on the disc face which causes high spots and the kicking felt through the brake pedal. These deposits are extremely difficult to remove. Stu is absolutely correct in what he says regarding the checksheet that the Audi technician has to complete, and it does take approx. 85 miles and approx. 2 hours to complete (the 50 one minute driving periods between the braking sequences on the initial part of the procedure should give an indication alone of the time and mileage involved to complete it). I actually spoke to the technician that completed mine (and I got a copy of his completed sheet) who stated that the problem is that Audi have to pay the technician the time to complete the process, and invariably RS technicians are on a higher hourly rate, and it is a costly two hours for Audi when they could be servicing another vehicle and having upsell on parts.
I know this thread is getting a little exhausted now but having gone through it all with the issues I had with mine and the subsequent results, firstly, don't let this put anyone off buying an RS4 (!!!) and secondly if you have issues, all the info is generally correct, and just approach your Audi dealer politely but firmly. The main problem now is age is against the cars, and only those with discs replaced by Audi at the owners initial expense could even qualify for warranty / goodwill.

[sonny]

+1 Johnnydog