Nothing yet on the RS6 (should be reviewable next year). I still hear that the RS5 is 3 or more years away if Audi follow their usual pattern. Which is stupid IMO. I drove an S5 for the second time this week and it comes close to being a good car, but Audi very clearly chose not to allow it to tread on the RS4's toes. The steering was the most crap aspect about it, but I also really disliked the engine which was like a very sick RS4's.
As you may know I also own an AMG ML63 and that actually handles very well when lowered slightly. We tested this and the Cayenne at Bedford a few months ago and it lapped on the same pace as an M5. On the right roads its as fast as anything.
Also my ML is clearly quicker than either of the RS4s I have driven, so if Mercedes doesn't gag the C63 too much it will be a rocketship. The C63 isn't on sale in the UK until spring next year, but I really hope to drive one in the UK sometime in the next few months. EVO's COTY is coming up in Autumn and we've got to get a C63 along for that.
RS4 Vs M3 Evo magazine
Thanks Steve, for taking the time to answer so thoroughly
To illustrate (and this is not directed at you at all) a very quick precise of the Evo comparison:
Looks - Audi
Interior feel - Audi
Clutch - draw
Gearbox - Audi
Wheel - Audi
Handling - BMW just - Audi better turn-in, Audi criticised for "on limit understeer", BMW has "fractionally more mid-corner speed"
Brakes - morally Audi
, Audis brakes look nicer, performance equal though BMW used non-std race pads to do this 
Engine - pretty equal, BMW has slightly better top-end but Autocar says Audi was "tiny bit faster and punchier in lower/mid range which is where you spend most of the time on the road" I only quote Autocar as Evo does not refer to this aspect, oh Audi engine looks better
The M3 gets the points decision when the only things it beats the Audi on is ability to oversteer on limit and the final 1000rpm. Yet the RS4 looks better, is it a better place to be sitting, has a better gearchange and steering.
Again, no need to respond to this directly as it is merely my observation - its great to have you contributing to this forum
Kind of sums up my point nicely, and you play a very important role sir! Absolutely not knocking Evo as its a great magazine and the only one I subscribe to, but sometimes I get the feeling its the more "jaded, detached journalist" and the search for "evoness" that outweighs pretty fundamental issues like exterior and interior styling which have a far greater real world impact on owner satisfaction.DoctorD wrote: My role (usually) is to provide this perspective since I'm just like most folk on here, a car enthusiast who might go out with their own money and buy one of these cars. Proper paid journalists can become a little jaded and detatched since (a) they are unlikely to buy the cars and (b) they drive nice cars all the time without having to face the real experience of running them (running a press car isn't really the same).
To illustrate (and this is not directed at you at all) a very quick precise of the Evo comparison:
Looks - Audi
Interior feel - Audi
Clutch - draw
Gearbox - Audi
Wheel - Audi
Handling - BMW just - Audi better turn-in, Audi criticised for "on limit understeer", BMW has "fractionally more mid-corner speed"
Brakes - morally Audi
, Audis brakes look nicer, performance equal though BMW used non-std race pads to do this Engine - pretty equal, BMW has slightly better top-end but Autocar says Audi was "tiny bit faster and punchier in lower/mid range which is where you spend most of the time on the road" I only quote Autocar as Evo does not refer to this aspect, oh Audi engine looks better
The M3 gets the points decision when the only things it beats the Audi on is ability to oversteer on limit and the final 1000rpm. Yet the RS4 looks better, is it a better place to be sitting, has a better gearchange and steering.
Again, no need to respond to this directly as it is merely my observation - its great to have you contributing to this forum
That's a fair assessment.
The only changes I would make to your list would be;
clutch - Audi (rather than being a draw)
Wheel - was Audi from a aesthetics perspective, also the seats in the RS4 are way better than those in the M3 (the Sports Seats I mean).
Steering - probably draw. Although some mags have criticised the M3's steering, there was really nothing between them. Both good, although I once detected a slight electronic glitch in the M3 as I crossed 100mph and the EDC system adjusted the weight of the steering. It happened just once and I couldn't repeat it.
Handling - from a dynamics perspective (i.e. adjustability, stability under braking, entertainment) the M3 was a clear winner. The RS4 (sans-SS+) was too unstable under braking, gave very few options if any to adjust the line or play in the corner. It was balanced and effective, but then so was the M3. And more. That wasn't a criticism of the RS4, merely that BMW had played to their usual strengths and matched the RS4 in all other ways.
Engine - Autocar's comment about RS4 vs M3 was in contrast to our experience. We had the '55 reg EVO long termer which had received the latest ECU upgrade, whilst Autocar had an '07 RS4 fresh from the Audi press fleet. The M3 in our hands pulled away from the RS4, so the Audi wasn't quicker, and I was quite happy that the RS4 was in fine fettle since I had blown away a Ferrari 355 on the road from Malaga to Marbella the day before. It was quick, but the M3 was quicker. The M3 was just as torquey mid-range but pulled harder at the top end. Again nothing surprising there since the M3 is 100kg of so lighter, but with similar power and only slightly less torque. The RS4's engine did indeed look better, we likened the M3's engine to looking like a 'Mutant Ninja Turtle'.. But even though the M3 was slightly quicker, it was nothing that would warrant a victory as such and would be insignificant in daily use. The RS4's engine is a gem, but the M3's engine takes it on another level - it really is an engine that Ferrari would be proud of and it's 'much' louder (i.e. penetrates further in distance) from the outside than the RS4's.
Brakes - the M3's squealled and were clearly fitted with a harder Pagid race pad, but even so they gave identical levels of retardation and there was nothing to seperate each car on the road.
My view was that when you drive the M3 it is clear that BMW were directly targetting Audi's RS4, they identified the RS4's (slight) weaknesses and that's where the M3's strengths lie. The fact that they could only match or lag behind the RS4 in many other areas is a real compliment to Audi.
We were initially dissapointed by the M3 because it didn't take the game way out of the RS4's reach, but after further reflection it was difficult to identify what BMW could have done to improve further apart from sort out the aesthetics and make it as special a place to be as the RS4.
There's been a lot of debate on forums in the last month or so, but actually the M3 is a 'very' good car. The problem for BMW is that so is the RS4, and that undermines somewhat the shine that BMW otherwise received when they launched the E46 M3.
The only changes I would make to your list would be;
clutch - Audi (rather than being a draw)
Wheel - was Audi from a aesthetics perspective, also the seats in the RS4 are way better than those in the M3 (the Sports Seats I mean).
Steering - probably draw. Although some mags have criticised the M3's steering, there was really nothing between them. Both good, although I once detected a slight electronic glitch in the M3 as I crossed 100mph and the EDC system adjusted the weight of the steering. It happened just once and I couldn't repeat it.
Handling - from a dynamics perspective (i.e. adjustability, stability under braking, entertainment) the M3 was a clear winner. The RS4 (sans-SS+) was too unstable under braking, gave very few options if any to adjust the line or play in the corner. It was balanced and effective, but then so was the M3. And more. That wasn't a criticism of the RS4, merely that BMW had played to their usual strengths and matched the RS4 in all other ways.
Engine - Autocar's comment about RS4 vs M3 was in contrast to our experience. We had the '55 reg EVO long termer which had received the latest ECU upgrade, whilst Autocar had an '07 RS4 fresh from the Audi press fleet. The M3 in our hands pulled away from the RS4, so the Audi wasn't quicker, and I was quite happy that the RS4 was in fine fettle since I had blown away a Ferrari 355 on the road from Malaga to Marbella the day before. It was quick, but the M3 was quicker. The M3 was just as torquey mid-range but pulled harder at the top end. Again nothing surprising there since the M3 is 100kg of so lighter, but with similar power and only slightly less torque. The RS4's engine did indeed look better, we likened the M3's engine to looking like a 'Mutant Ninja Turtle'.. But even though the M3 was slightly quicker, it was nothing that would warrant a victory as such and would be insignificant in daily use. The RS4's engine is a gem, but the M3's engine takes it on another level - it really is an engine that Ferrari would be proud of and it's 'much' louder (i.e. penetrates further in distance) from the outside than the RS4's.
Brakes - the M3's squealled and were clearly fitted with a harder Pagid race pad, but even so they gave identical levels of retardation and there was nothing to seperate each car on the road.
My view was that when you drive the M3 it is clear that BMW were directly targetting Audi's RS4, they identified the RS4's (slight) weaknesses and that's where the M3's strengths lie. The fact that they could only match or lag behind the RS4 in many other areas is a real compliment to Audi.
We were initially dissapointed by the M3 because it didn't take the game way out of the RS4's reach, but after further reflection it was difficult to identify what BMW could have done to improve further apart from sort out the aesthetics and make it as special a place to be as the RS4.
There's been a lot of debate on forums in the last month or so, but actually the M3 is a 'very' good car. The problem for BMW is that so is the RS4, and that undermines somewhat the shine that BMW otherwise received when they launched the E46 M3.
I agree - I am just chuffed that the RS4 seems to be roughly on a par with the two years younger M3 across most reviews, great for residuals and does not have me itching to change (thank god).DoctorD wrote: There's been a lot of debate on forums in the last month or so, but actually the M3 is a 'very' good car. The problem for BMW is that so is the RS4, and that undermines somewhat the shine that BMW otherwise received when they launched the E46 M3.
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RussianM3_dude
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- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:01 pm
- Location: Cheese Land
"Busy" under braking is what I definetly noticed. Damn near wiped out twice. However I was blasted for criticising the "godly" RS4 that "could do no wrong". I mean we have a lot of twisty roads in Switzerland and it is a huge loss of confidence when you know that if you have to emergency brake in a corner or a curve, you better be prepared to catch the rear.
Steve, would you agree or not that the RS4 is badly geared for daily driving? My problem is that the gears are a tad longish, but also that they are too far apart. Unless you shift past 6000rpm all the time, you constantly fall out of the sweet spot and the car just feels average. So I drive in second (and look like a prat) max while in the city and even then sometimes it's too weak. I had a BMW 130MSport before and it was basically much nicer to drive as it had more urge in traffic down low.
Steve, would you agree or not that the RS4 is badly geared for daily driving? My problem is that the gears are a tad longish, but also that they are too far apart. Unless you shift past 6000rpm all the time, you constantly fall out of the sweet spot and the car just feels average. So I drive in second (and look like a prat) max while in the city and even then sometimes it's too weak. I had a BMW 130MSport before and it was basically much nicer to drive as it had more urge in traffic down low.
OMG, I hope you never buy a Porsche thenRussianM3_dude wrote:"Busy" under braking is what I definetly noticed. Damn near wiped out twice. However I was blasted for criticising the "godly" RS4 that "could do no wrong". I mean we have a lot of twisty roads in Switzerland and it is a huge loss of confidence when you know that if you have to emergency brake in a corner or a curve, you better be prepared to catch the rear.
M3 Dude, we all know you hate the RS4 & being an owner that's almost laughable, but read what's written by someone who i certainly feel has a tad more real world knowledge than your good self.
Braking heavily mid corner is only to be performed in an emergency & if performance cars are now rated as to how well they perform actions that people should NOT be performing, then the end of the world is nigh. Surely an emergency is just that, a very rare occurance, looks to me like you drive up & down Swiss mountains, looking for prey & expecting to drive at close to the limits every time you're on the move. Why not try slowing down a little & driving the car within it's limits, or perhaps take some decent instruction as to the best ways to exploit your car fully.
Me thinks it's your driving style & requirements that are questionable, not any cars ability. Why the hell would anyone drive round town in second gear just to stay in a cars sweet spot?? Are you trying to race your car with every other car on the road?? If that's the case, i'm sure glad you live 1000 miles away from me.
Perhaps though it's just me whose a weird RS4 owner, as i like to have a play when the mood takes me & conditions are suitable, the rest of the time i just drive the car from point A to point B & surely that's the delight of the RS4??
Braking heavily mid corner is only to be performed in an emergency & if performance cars are now rated as to how well they perform actions that people should NOT be performing, then the end of the world is nigh. Surely an emergency is just that, a very rare occurance, looks to me like you drive up & down Swiss mountains, looking for prey & expecting to drive at close to the limits every time you're on the move. Why not try slowing down a little & driving the car within it's limits, or perhaps take some decent instruction as to the best ways to exploit your car fully.
Me thinks it's your driving style & requirements that are questionable, not any cars ability. Why the hell would anyone drive round town in second gear just to stay in a cars sweet spot?? Are you trying to race your car with every other car on the road?? If that's the case, i'm sure glad you live 1000 miles away from me.
Perhaps though it's just me whose a weird RS4 owner, as i like to have a play when the mood takes me & conditions are suitable, the rest of the time i just drive the car from point A to point B & surely that's the delight of the RS4??
Paul
03 Black AmD Stage3 C5 RS6 Saloon (Sold)
05 Blue DMS E60 M5 (Sold)
07 Blue DMS B7 RS4 Saloon (Sold)
10 White Nissan R35 GT-R Premium Edition SVM Stage 4 (Sold)
12 White D4 A8 TDi SE Executive (Sold)
14 Grey LCi F10 M5 (Rejected)
14 Blue DMS Stage 2 LCi F10 M5 (Sold)
17 Grey FFRR Autobiography (Rejected)
17 Black D4 A8 TDi Black Edition (Sold)
18 White APR Stage 2 Golf R 7.5 Estate
03 Black AmD Stage3 C5 RS6 Saloon (Sold)
05 Blue DMS E60 M5 (Sold)
07 Blue DMS B7 RS4 Saloon (Sold)
10 White Nissan R35 GT-R Premium Edition SVM Stage 4 (Sold)
12 White D4 A8 TDi SE Executive (Sold)
14 Grey LCi F10 M5 (Rejected)
14 Blue DMS Stage 2 LCi F10 M5 (Sold)
17 Grey FFRR Autobiography (Rejected)
17 Black D4 A8 TDi Black Edition (Sold)
18 White APR Stage 2 Golf R 7.5 Estate
I suspect your RS4 is performing below par, because whilst the gearing is quite long-ish I find plenty of urge in 3rd or 4th gears in normal use. Perhaps ascending a mountain you might like to stay in 2nd (I know I've just come back from Tignes in the French Alps). My ML63 is bombastic and I was driving around in 3rd gear when ascending most of the hills, but I would have thought driving in 2nd in the RS4 points towards a problem with your car. I know the 130i well and it's a sweet engine but not normally more urgent.RussianM3_dude wrote:"Busy" under braking is what I definetly noticed. Damn near wiped out twice. However I was blasted for criticising the "godly" RS4 that "could do no wrong". I mean we have a lot of twisty roads in Switzerland and it is a huge loss of confidence when you know that if you have to emergency brake in a corner or a curve, you better be prepared to catch the rear.
Steve, would you agree or not that the RS4 is badly geared for daily driving? My problem is that the gears are a tad longish, but also that they are too far apart. Unless you shift past 6000rpm all the time, you constantly fall out of the sweet spot and the car just feels average. So I drive in second (and look like a prat) max while in the city and even then sometimes it's too weak. I had a BMW 130MSport before and it was basically much nicer to drive as it had more urge in traffic down low.
As for the rear end business under braking. Whilst on the EVO test we switched off the ESP hoping it might afford us more front end traction, but it just made the rear feel more wayward. That didn't give us a problem in terms of controlling it, but just made it pointless leaving it switched off. I drove an RS4 Avant with SS+ earlier this week and with the stiffer suspension I could not re-create this instability, so I suspect it has more to do with softness of the rear springs in a standard car. Nice to know it can be cured by a simple bit of elementary suspension fettling.
Now the problem is that I would prefer to buy an RS4 with SS+, of which there are very few (with the right spec)...
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RussianM3_dude
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- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:01 pm
- Location: Cheese Land
Hmm, I guess it's just the way I use it, however mine feels really weak under 4500rpm. That's what I don't like in my car, it feels like a stiff regular A4 most of the time, I guess I should try a C63 AMG then. I hope Evo reviews it soon, since I find my opinions usually in line with this great mag.
P.S. How come all the best car/bike mags and shows come out of England?
P.S. How come all the best car/bike mags and shows come out of England?
DrD (Steve) - thanks so much for that, it has reaffirmed what I was thinking. I wonder when the first tests of the DCT gearbox will emerge???? One thing which I am sure you will love about RS4 ownership is that it rewards hugely when driving in mixed weathers. The last month or so have highlighted to me just how much 4WD benefits a UK performance car. My E46 was always a handful in the wet (in fact for handful read crap) on public roads, especially if the roads where a little greasy after a dry spell - but the joy of full accelleration from the lights on a drenched road, without a hint of traction control if fab - not that doing that in itself is highly rewarding, but the knowledge that there will be solid traction in even the heaviest downpours is very reassuring. I have sent you a PM. Regards Mark
Great views and comments from Steve. I met Steve outside Notts opc earlier this year and at the time I had a boxster and was thinking about a Z4 m coupe after I had seen pics of Steves coupe in Evo and on the web with CSLs on and blow me he pulls up outside Notts opc in it. I had a chat and it as you can see from the content above he puts us normal petrol heads to shame with regard ti his knowledge. Didnt get the coupe in the end Steve, got an Rs4 instead? 
Steve
An excellent review there and some good background on the test itself. However, I would like to add my 2p worth. Whilst I cannot contest anything you've written (you've done the test after all, and I've driven neither), there is a factor here thats often overlooked - The day to day driver. I believe in the real world that the vast majority of owners will not have the skill or desire to exploit the outer reaches of performance in either car and I wonder just how many would choose one over the other for their on limit/full chat abilities since they appear so close.
I would therefore deduce (based on your own statements) that in terms of appearance (inside & out), gear change, steering etc, all things that the general buyer can identify with, the RS4 seems to me to be the overall choice. Add to that the likey rarity over the ubiquitous M3 and the wet weather ability, to me, the RS4 would appear to be the better buy.
It's almost irrelevant now anyway as the RS4 will not be sold alongside the new M3 but it's obvious why you would use the RS4 as a benchmark test for the new car.
Thanks again Steve for the brilliant info.
M3dude:-
I find it totally astonishing that you bought/leased a car of that value without giving it a long test drive. If you did and hate the car so much, then it doesn't say much for your ability to judge. If you didn't test drive, then you deserve what you get!!! I wish you would just get rid of it and give us all peace!!!
An excellent review there and some good background on the test itself. However, I would like to add my 2p worth. Whilst I cannot contest anything you've written (you've done the test after all, and I've driven neither), there is a factor here thats often overlooked - The day to day driver. I believe in the real world that the vast majority of owners will not have the skill or desire to exploit the outer reaches of performance in either car and I wonder just how many would choose one over the other for their on limit/full chat abilities since they appear so close.
I would therefore deduce (based on your own statements) that in terms of appearance (inside & out), gear change, steering etc, all things that the general buyer can identify with, the RS4 seems to me to be the overall choice. Add to that the likey rarity over the ubiquitous M3 and the wet weather ability, to me, the RS4 would appear to be the better buy.
It's almost irrelevant now anyway as the RS4 will not be sold alongside the new M3 but it's obvious why you would use the RS4 as a benchmark test for the new car.
Thanks again Steve for the brilliant info.
M3dude:-
I find it totally astonishing that you bought/leased a car of that value without giving it a long test drive. If you did and hate the car so much, then it doesn't say much for your ability to judge. If you didn't test drive, then you deserve what you get!!! I wish you would just get rid of it and give us all peace!!!
B5 RS4 - Santorin Blue Pearl
B7 Brakes
MRC Custom Re-Map
Loba Camshafts
Wagner Downpipes
Miltek Cat Back SS Exhaust
1988 Pearl White MB Ur quattro (Genesis)
B7 Brakes
MRC Custom Re-Map
Loba Camshafts
Wagner Downpipes
Miltek Cat Back SS Exhaust
1988 Pearl White MB Ur quattro (Genesis)
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RussianM3_dude
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Well, I was suckered by brilliant reviews. Also it is possible that my car is a bit of Lemon to begin with. It just never happened to me before that I came to hate just about every aspect of the car, including things as minute as the gearshift lever which becomes blisterengly hot (literally, ouch!) on a Summer day.
Rest assured, from now on I will test drive the cars fully, dealer's pleas to be gentle be damned!!!
Rest assured, from now on I will test drive the cars fully, dealer's pleas to be gentle be damned!!!
Hello Steve,
With the knowledge of the manual car you already have, would you say the advent of the M DCT box will change the character of the M3?.In that,i mean, do you think the car will feel quicker because of the lightning quick gearchanges,almost, and i say almost, like a junior M5?.Ive always been a manaul box man myself, until i had an M5,which i really got used to.When im having a spirited few moments in the RS4, i cant help thinking that it would really suit an SMG/M DCT type gearbox, because no matter how fast you abuse the gearchange for speed, i think the paddleshifter box keeps more power on, for more of the time, and keeps the coals on the fire better.Also, whilst im tapping away here, and sorry for being off topic, how much better do you rate the 997 Turbo against the likes of the cars we are talking about?.I seem to keep craving for this car when im sat at home, but when i get out in the RS4, i think to myself, why do i really lust after the Porsche?.I think both M3 and RS4 , offer as much performance as the layman could responsibly use on British roads.Perhaps its the human nature effect, plagueing me into thinking that i want more power, and that its better than the Audi, so i must have one.Regards, SIMON.
With the knowledge of the manual car you already have, would you say the advent of the M DCT box will change the character of the M3?.In that,i mean, do you think the car will feel quicker because of the lightning quick gearchanges,almost, and i say almost, like a junior M5?.Ive always been a manaul box man myself, until i had an M5,which i really got used to.When im having a spirited few moments in the RS4, i cant help thinking that it would really suit an SMG/M DCT type gearbox, because no matter how fast you abuse the gearchange for speed, i think the paddleshifter box keeps more power on, for more of the time, and keeps the coals on the fire better.Also, whilst im tapping away here, and sorry for being off topic, how much better do you rate the 997 Turbo against the likes of the cars we are talking about?.I seem to keep craving for this car when im sat at home, but when i get out in the RS4, i think to myself, why do i really lust after the Porsche?.I think both M3 and RS4 , offer as much performance as the layman could responsibly use on British roads.Perhaps its the human nature effect, plagueing me into thinking that i want more power, and that its better than the Audi, so i must have one.Regards, SIMON.
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