5th Gear Next Week!

[GardinerG]

rwd powerslides or 4wd wet weather stability. Hmmm, which would be more usefull on UK roads? It's a difficult question methinks!

The stability benefits are only under traction, but the implication of your point seems to assume that RWD would somehow hamper progress or be harder to control. To be honest, that's a limitation of the driver and not the car.

Damn, you're right; I'm not a racing or test driver.

As for stability benefits under traction; Isn't it *generally* harder to get a 4wd car out of shape than a rwd, especially in UK weather conditions? I think most people would brick themselves if their rear end overtook the front. Happend to me once when I was 17, and yes perhaps if I had been a better driver I could have controlled it.

so correcting oversteer just got tedious (even with DSC on).

I won't disagree that this makes it more involving for the driver, but I would rather have a car that went where I pointed it in the first place.

As for real world situations, there's a T junction in godalming that is not only blind to the right, but really tight (and sharp). In FWD/RWD cars it is a tyre scrabbling (and fingers crossed if someone's coming at 40mph+) junction, but in the RS.. I can put my foot down and either let the ESP b1tch at me a little, or turn it off anyway and get clear in a second - with no tyre scrabbling and whatever the weather.

To be honest, that's a limitation of the driver and not the car.

I quite agree, but given the number of RWD cars i've seen in ditches... and I do know from those I speak to (Supra, MR2 turbo, BMW 3) that they have all had hairy moments (going round corners or trying to overtake) at some point or another. I'll stick to the 4wd, it suits my driving style and uk roads n weather better.

Sorry for the thread hijack. I'll get my coat.

G

[PetrolDave]

Tiff is a great driver, but he seldom offers any constructive references on how a car is to live with. He's only interested in how it handles on a track and the fun it provides him with and as a result I don't rate him as a informative journalist!

Second that 100%.

I've have various forms of quattro Audis since 2000, with a one year gap when I had a FWD A4. The ability of a quattro to get you, your kids, your wife, your dogs and your luggage from point A to point B safely whatever the weather is so much better than any 2WD (FWD or RWD) car that I couldn't wait to get back to a quattro again.

For me it's about everyday usable performance on public roads, not about "fun" on a track ... and Tiff just doesn't understand that.

Even Clarkson does... remember when they compared the M3 against the S4 on Top Gear? Clarkson said even though the M3 would be more fun for 1 lap of the track he'd drive home in the S4.

[DoctorD]

It isn't just wet weather stability that the RS4 is superior in. It applies to dry cold weather (under 10 C) conditions as well which forms a large proportion of our year-round weather. My M3 used to lose traction (almost irrespective of tyres) in dry cold weather so easily, so correcting oversteer just got tedious (even with DSC on). Traction was better following tyre warm-up but only marginally so and this takes a while on cold days (30+ mins).

I look forward to winter for that very reason, but I realise not everyone enjoys getting a car moving around on the road. Perhaps because I have other cars to choose from, but when the winter weather gets difficult I turn to my 4WD SUV (certainly for our ski holidays). However I still don't think I could ever do without a RWD car in my garage.

[55JWB]

Didnt he and Plato muck about in a M3 CS and the RS4 when the RS4 came out, they were drifting and marking each other and he could not get the car to do what he wanted at all and had to conceed to plato who was driving the M3??

He was not happy about that, probably still 'sticks in his gut' now

[DoctorD]

For me it's about everyday usable performance on public roads, not about "fun" on a track ... and Tiff just doesn't understand that.

Even Clarkson does... remember when they compared the M3 against the S4 on Top Gear? Clarkson said even though the M3 would be more fun for 1 lap of the track he'd drive home in the S4.

There is a huge difference in driving ability between Clarkson and Tiff, having worked with them both. Jeremy has come a long way in the 15 years since I've known him, he used to be crap and always crashed. Tiff has great ability and enjoys a chassis that allows him the most amount of input.

Anyway, you've got to choose whichever type of car suits your driving style and I would choose 4WD for certain road conditions (i.e. snow), but wet weather is tremendous fun in a RWD car and ultimately prefer the greater range of options to control a car's attitude in a corner provided by a RWD configuration.

[t_urbo]

rwd powerslides or 4wd wet weather stability. Hmmm, which would be more usefull on UK roads? It's a difficult question methinks!

The stability benefits are only under traction, but the implication of your point seems to assume that RWD would somehow hamper progress or be harder to control. To be honest, that's a limitation of the driver and not the car.

Agreed.

The only benefit of 4WD over RWD is acceleration in a straight line in the wet, the RS4 keeps being compared to cars like the M3 which TBH is easy to break loose because of the lack of weight over the rear wheels, compare it with a 996 or 997 RWD and its a different story.

The RS4 is a great car but a good RWD is better.

[Norrs2]

Anyway, you've got to choose whichever type of car suits your driving style and I would choose 4WD for certain road conditions (i.e. snow), but wet weather is tremendous fun in a RWD car and ultimately prefer the greater range of options to control a car's attitude in a corner provided by a RWD configuration.

Steve

Thank god I don't have your tyre bill

SNOW? (1mm) + RWD + 1 degree slope = No motion! =

[audijohn]

Yea cos he can't cope with 4 wheel drive, never could.

Needell looked "pretty good " in a 4 wheel drive Gallardo against one of the fastest road bikes being driven by a World Superbike rider!!!
The guy is still a wonderful driver.

Yes he is a great driver, but does not like/rate 4 wheel drive.

[audijohn]

Yea cos he can't cope with 4 wheel drive, never could.

Pardon? You did watch his first drive of the Audi R8 did you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a8KXNRm_q4

Must admit, yours was my first view, he still would have the Vantage though, BUT a big change in what he thinks of the Audi which is great news, and a change for him.

[alex_123_fra]

rwd powerslides or 4wd wet weather stability. Hmmm, which would be more usefull on UK roads? It's a difficult question methinks!

The stability benefits are only under traction, but the implication of your point seems to assume that RWD would somehow hamper progress or be harder to control. To be honest, that's a limitation of the driver and not the car.

Agreed.

The only benefit of 4WD over RWD is acceleration in a straight line in the wet, the RS4 keeps being compared to cars like the M3 which TBH is easy to break loose because of the lack of weight over the rear wheels, compare it with a 996 or 997 RWD and its a different story.

The RS4 is a great car but a good RWD is better.

I think the decision as to which is "better" is going to be subjective and very individual and will depend on what is being asked of the car. If you're talking about lap-time performance, I'd say the RS4 and new M3 will be very much on par although we await head to head testing to tell us this.

Not everyone likes having the back end out easily and although "fun" for some, it certainly isn't the quickest way to travel on roads or tracks. In terms of day to day useability in all weather conditions, practicality, interior, build quality, the RS4 is "better" but that again comes down to personal opinion.

My ultimate driver's car would be RWD, mid-engined and light....2 out of 3 categories which the M3 doesn't satisfy. After experiencing many mid-engined RWD cars, whenever I get into an M3, I can't help but be disappointed as it comes nowhere near the purist driver experience the former provide. Maybe the E92 M3 will be different...who knows. What I love about the RS4, is the lack of pretence....it doesn't claim to be a "driver's car", yet it is unbelievably involving despite being 4WD, it has enormous accessible performance, great handling and is just a very good all-rounder.

In the end, we will all choose for our own specific needs and reasons...and the opinions of car programmes and magazines shouldn't form 100% of our opinion on what is a "good" car or not.

[audijohn]

The stability benefits are only under traction, but the implication of your point seems to assume that RWD would somehow hamper progress or be harder to control. To be honest, that's a limitation of the driver and not the car.

Agreed.

The only benefit of 4WD over RWD is acceleration in a straight line in the wet, the RS4 keeps being compared to cars like the M3 which TBH is easy to break loose because of the lack of weight over the rear wheels, compare it with a 996 or 997 RWD and its a different story.

The RS4 is a great car but a good RWD is better.

I think the decision as to which is "better" is going to be subjective and very individual and will depend on what is being asked of the car. If you're talking about lap-time performance, I'd say the RS4 and new M3 will be very much on par although we await head to head testing to tell us this.

Not everyone likes having the back end out easily and although "fun" for some, it certainly isn't the quickest way to travel on roads or tracks. In terms of day to day useability in all weather conditions, practicality, interior, build quality, the RS4 is "better" but that again comes down to personal opinion.

My ultimate driver's car would be RWD, mid-engined and light....2 out of 3 categories which the M3 doesn't satisfy. After experiencing many mid-engined RWD cars, whenever I get into an M3, I can't help but be disappointed as it comes nowhere near the purist driver experience the former provide. Maybe the E92 M3 will be different...who knows. What I love about the RS4, is the lack of pretence....it doesn't claim to be a "driver's car", yet it is unbelievably involving despite being 4WD, it has enormous accessible performance, great handling and is just a very good all-rounder.

In the end, we will all choose for our own specific needs and reasons...and the opinions of car programmes and magazines shouldn't form 100% of our opinion on what is a "good" car or not.

Good post Alex.

[PetrolDave]

For me it's about everyday usable performance on public roads, not about "fun" on a track ... and Tiff just doesn't understand that.

Even Clarkson does... remember when they compared the M3 against the S4 on Top Gear? Clarkson said even though the M3 would be more fun for 1 lap of the track he'd drive home in the S4.

There is a huge difference in driving ability between Clarkson and Tiff, having worked with them both. Jeremy has come a long way in the 15 years since I've known him, he used to be crap and always crashed. Tiff has great ability and enjoys a chassis that allows him the most amount of input.

Anyway, you've got to choose whichever type of car suits your driving style and I would choose 4WD for certain road conditions (i.e. snow), but wet weather is tremendous fun in a RWD car and ultimately prefer the greater range of options to control a car's attitude in a corner provided by a RWD configuration.

I'm not talking about their relative driving ability - I'm talking about their understanding of what is important to an owner in the real world.

Tiff lives in a dream world where everyone his (undoubted) outstanding driving abilities. But at least Clarkson acknowledges that in the real world keeping your car and family safe have a pretty high priority ...

I used to love driving the Lotus Esprit round the test track when I worked at Lotus, but I didn't even consider for a fraction of a second buying one (not just because of the Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious name!) because it was fun in a "safe" environment but just plain hard work in the real world. I want to enjoy my driving...

[dubbers]

Notice Tiff Needles is testing the new M3 next week. I'll bet anyone a tenner he will favour it over a RS4.

Every comparison I've ever seen him make between BMW & Audi, he always goes for the BMW!

It would be churlish to suggest that Tiff's impartiality would be affected by a small detail such as receiving a number of loan cars from a Bavarian car company.

[jackwood]

Well, having a light-ish mid-engine RWD and an RS4, there is obviously a difference in the way they both drive and handle. But in reality, they both are exceptional cars that are thrilling to drive.
Yes the Porsche is more feel-sum and adjustable, and you can play around with the rear end pretty easily (yes, even with the PSM switched on), but the RS4 is dominated by the engine. At the moment, for me it is quite hard to get past the engine. It's intoxicating.
But it doesn't communicate the road to the driver in the same way. It is more of a trust thing with the RS4. You build up the trust with the grip it can generate and use that trust to get the maximum speed over a given road in it. With the Porsche you feel your way to the limit and you can sit on it and play with it, feeling the rubber flexing and the suspension components working.
There is no denying that the RS4 is a devastating car for getting safe and sound from A to B, but sometimes it's nice to think that you, the driver, has actually had a little bit of input into dispatching a road.
Where the thrill of the RS4 is the feel of physics-defying cornering and brutish straight-line speed, the thrill of the Cayman is from pushing the car closer and closer to its limits and feeling and exploring the boundaries between the road and driver.
Tell me to shut-up if you like……..

[berry100]

Put me...your very average driver in the RS4 against the 'average driver in the M3 or whatever comparible car RWD' in wet or dry and I'll happily put money on myself.......

Got to be a no contest equation for the 'average' driver?