I've said this before and I'll say it again, this test was not a fair comparison of the 3 cars. For a start, the M3 in the programme should be the forthcoming M3 saloon (not coupe) which will be heavier and less nimble than the coupe. The C63 AMG is more powerful than the other 2 which again doesn't seem very fair.
All the test seemed to show is that a lighter, RWD coupe (M3) with the same power than the RS4 is quicker than the RS4 (and C63) around a track. It doesn't take a genius to work that out even without going to the trouble of testing them head to head.
It would be interesting to see the M3 nurburgring time. I would doubt it is faster than the RS4 by such a margin as the top gear ascari test would suggest.
RS4 on Top Gear (Dec 23rd)
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alex_123_fra
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- Posts: 649
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Current: C7 RS6 - Black, VW Passat CC R36 - Black, Freelander 2 - Black
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS
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Housemaster
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Well this is my first post on this site, so in at the deep end as they say. Some people on here (SteveD or DoctorD) know me from MTorque and other such excellent forums, and I felt a little objective balance would be interesting on a site that often seems to be full of a single view, much that same as any branded forum though it must be said. I have had plenty of Audi's over the years, and plenty of BMW's too, including M3's and I currently have an RS4 which I bought in between my GT3's, so feel I can shed a less 'rose tinted' view of the world than some (though far from all) of the posts I have seen on this forum.
Top Gear first...
Who care what they think. Right, thats that put to bed
My view on the RS4 from when I first got it, and as posted on MTorque..
Problems
There have been a few that have annoyed me somewhat, and do not show Audi's preparation skills in a good light.
1: Washer bottle leaks and water runs out within 24 hours.
2: Aircon does not go very cold and needs a regas.
3: Petrol does not go in very well, seems there is a small airlock somewhere.
4: Flappy noise from behind the dash, likely to be leaves stuck in there.
Good Points
As a car to travel distances in, something I do more often than not, it is very good. It is not 7 series comfy, but it really does eat miles with little trouble, is good at speed, stable, relaxed and quiet at motorway speeds. Cross country on bumpy and twisty lanes it is very very quick, quicker than my GT3 would have been for example, which I think puts it into perspective. The car is very well damped and set up for the road, so it simply irons out lumps and bumps that would have had the GT3 moving about and unsettled, this is why it is quicker at this task. I really can't think of a car that I have driven which is as easy to exploit, I am very impressed with its ability in this area.
General day to day ability is also exceptional. It goes really well when pushed and has immense traction that means you can bury the throttle early as it just hunkers down and goes where it is pointed. I have driven Quattro's of various forms before, but this has the best 4WD of all of them, though I am yet to borrow the R8 for a blast. I can't think of a more rounded and complete road car actually, its has it pretty much nailed smack on in most areas, goes well, sounds good, is nice to be in, looks good and has a solid image (for those who give a stuff).
So............ why is it not totally working for me?
Well I need to give it more time to be honest, and I am not planning to change it, but I think it is lacking something that I can't put my finger on. There is no point comparing it to my GT3 really, which to me was top of the tree for what I like in a car, but I can perhaps use it to explain where the RS4 misses. The steering is still not great, and to me that matters, more so in a performance car, but then the M3 was not great either, but I still think it was better, as was the chassis balance. The RS4 is hugely competent, it just does what you ask, no fuss, no stress and because of this no genuine involvement. It is quicker than the M3 both in the numbers and on the road, no question of that but I remember when I first test drove the RS4 I got out thinking "bloody great car, but not something I really want to own" and I bought a GT3.
I sold the GT3 due to 20,000 miles in 14 months and the need for a 4 seater so was resigned to getting something more grown up, and the RS4 is very grown up, very good at everything and more car than anyone really needs. But for me its simply a means of transport and not something I will ever turn around and look at as I walk away.
So thats my view, I like to think it is objective as I have never been guilty of thinking my car is the best or even worse, has to be the best so I feel better. I think the RS4 is a cracker, no question, but I don't think its a great drivers car, it lacks to much in the feel stakes, does not have great balance when REALLY pushed and is not the all concoring road monster when it is dry. Cross country, in the wet, or on bumpy roads it is exceptional as a means to go from A to B, but I would NEVER choose it over my GT3 as a drivers car, even if the GT3 would be slower in such conditions, and I have to say I don't think I would choose it over an E46 M3, something it would again be quicker than.
It is a sports saloon car after all, a GT in the classic sense if you like, and being such I think the ingredients need to be a mix of ability and feeling, and this is where I think the new M3 will better it. Is a new M3 quicker A to B on most British roads I doubt it very much, will the driver have a bigger smile on his face, I think this one might, but others may not. And one final point, drive a GT3 or CSL if you want to see a truly great engine, the RS4 is somewhat off both in my book, and is also somewhat off the E92 M3 too when it comes to it.
All my views of course thanks for listening
Top Gear first...
Who care what they think. Right, thats that put to bed
My view on the RS4 from when I first got it, and as posted on MTorque..
Problems
There have been a few that have annoyed me somewhat, and do not show Audi's preparation skills in a good light.
1: Washer bottle leaks and water runs out within 24 hours.
2: Aircon does not go very cold and needs a regas.
3: Petrol does not go in very well, seems there is a small airlock somewhere.
4: Flappy noise from behind the dash, likely to be leaves stuck in there.
Good Points
As a car to travel distances in, something I do more often than not, it is very good. It is not 7 series comfy, but it really does eat miles with little trouble, is good at speed, stable, relaxed and quiet at motorway speeds. Cross country on bumpy and twisty lanes it is very very quick, quicker than my GT3 would have been for example, which I think puts it into perspective. The car is very well damped and set up for the road, so it simply irons out lumps and bumps that would have had the GT3 moving about and unsettled, this is why it is quicker at this task. I really can't think of a car that I have driven which is as easy to exploit, I am very impressed with its ability in this area.
General day to day ability is also exceptional. It goes really well when pushed and has immense traction that means you can bury the throttle early as it just hunkers down and goes where it is pointed. I have driven Quattro's of various forms before, but this has the best 4WD of all of them, though I am yet to borrow the R8 for a blast. I can't think of a more rounded and complete road car actually, its has it pretty much nailed smack on in most areas, goes well, sounds good, is nice to be in, looks good and has a solid image (for those who give a stuff).
So............ why is it not totally working for me?
Well I need to give it more time to be honest, and I am not planning to change it, but I think it is lacking something that I can't put my finger on. There is no point comparing it to my GT3 really, which to me was top of the tree for what I like in a car, but I can perhaps use it to explain where the RS4 misses. The steering is still not great, and to me that matters, more so in a performance car, but then the M3 was not great either, but I still think it was better, as was the chassis balance. The RS4 is hugely competent, it just does what you ask, no fuss, no stress and because of this no genuine involvement. It is quicker than the M3 both in the numbers and on the road, no question of that but I remember when I first test drove the RS4 I got out thinking "bloody great car, but not something I really want to own" and I bought a GT3.
I sold the GT3 due to 20,000 miles in 14 months and the need for a 4 seater so was resigned to getting something more grown up, and the RS4 is very grown up, very good at everything and more car than anyone really needs. But for me its simply a means of transport and not something I will ever turn around and look at as I walk away.
So thats my view, I like to think it is objective as I have never been guilty of thinking my car is the best or even worse, has to be the best so I feel better. I think the RS4 is a cracker, no question, but I don't think its a great drivers car, it lacks to much in the feel stakes, does not have great balance when REALLY pushed and is not the all concoring road monster when it is dry. Cross country, in the wet, or on bumpy roads it is exceptional as a means to go from A to B, but I would NEVER choose it over my GT3 as a drivers car, even if the GT3 would be slower in such conditions, and I have to say I don't think I would choose it over an E46 M3, something it would again be quicker than.
It is a sports saloon car after all, a GT in the classic sense if you like, and being such I think the ingredients need to be a mix of ability and feeling, and this is where I think the new M3 will better it. Is a new M3 quicker A to B on most British roads I doubt it very much, will the driver have a bigger smile on his face, I think this one might, but others may not. And one final point, drive a GT3 or CSL if you want to see a truly great engine, the RS4 is somewhat off both in my book, and is also somewhat off the E92 M3 too when it comes to it.
All my views of course thanks for listening
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alex_123_fra
- 4th Gear
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:57 pm
Nice write up and I agree with most of your points. I think that, realistically, most people who buy RS4s actually buy them because they offer an incredible all-round package rather than because they expect they're getting a great driver's car.
The M400 was the greatest driver's car I ever drove and in my opinion much better balanced, better steering, better performing than the GT3RS, CSL and even 360 Challenge stradale I test drove. Miles ahead than my previous M3. True it did not have as classic an engine as the others, but it still wiped the floor with much more expensive machinery and having a "driver's" car mattered to me at the time.
The RS4, in my opinion, does not pretend to be a great drivers car. I genuinely feel audi made it to be the all-rounder that it is as they know their target buyers lap up this kind of vehicle. That said, you can feel quite involved in the RS4's behaviour but in order to achieve this, you have to push the car far beyond the limit you would push an M3, which is just too scary for most drivers.
What I've realised about M3s (not the CSL) is that there is a huge amount of pretence there. It pretends to be a great drivers car but it fails in its quest because in my opinion it is simply moderately good (either in E46 or E92 form). Anyone who has driven a really well balanced, light, focused driver's car such as the above could never be satisfied owning a standard E46, E92 M3 to fulfill a similar role. As such, I'd much rather own an all-rounder which is usable in all road surfaces and conditions this country has to offer. If I ever go for another driver's car again, it would certainly not be a lukewarm M3. Instead I would have the real thing, as offered by many other manufacturers.
The M400 was the greatest driver's car I ever drove and in my opinion much better balanced, better steering, better performing than the GT3RS, CSL and even 360 Challenge stradale I test drove. Miles ahead than my previous M3. True it did not have as classic an engine as the others, but it still wiped the floor with much more expensive machinery and having a "driver's" car mattered to me at the time.
The RS4, in my opinion, does not pretend to be a great drivers car. I genuinely feel audi made it to be the all-rounder that it is as they know their target buyers lap up this kind of vehicle. That said, you can feel quite involved in the RS4's behaviour but in order to achieve this, you have to push the car far beyond the limit you would push an M3, which is just too scary for most drivers.
What I've realised about M3s (not the CSL) is that there is a huge amount of pretence there. It pretends to be a great drivers car but it fails in its quest because in my opinion it is simply moderately good (either in E46 or E92 form). Anyone who has driven a really well balanced, light, focused driver's car such as the above could never be satisfied owning a standard E46, E92 M3 to fulfill a similar role. As such, I'd much rather own an all-rounder which is usable in all road surfaces and conditions this country has to offer. If I ever go for another driver's car again, it would certainly not be a lukewarm M3. Instead I would have the real thing, as offered by many other manufacturers.
Current: C7 RS6 - Black, VW Passat CC R36 - Black, Freelander 2 - Black
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS
Great post and welcome aboard Housemaster.
Nice to see some educated comment not prejudiced vitriole!
In the end I chose a 07 RS4 over a 03/04 996TT (it really only boiled down to these two) for various reasons:
1) Because my budget didn't really stretch any further and I'd get a new car over a second hand one...with all the potential issues that solves. I have to admit though, it was the first new car I'd ever bought, because buying new always struck me as crazy.
2) Although Porsche ownership for me represents the pinnacle, aside from perhaps the Cayenne, they're all essentially toys with nil practical value. You can get a suitcase in one and thats about it. I don't have a family, and still it didn't quite have enough space to allow me to pursue my outdoors hobbies without looking like a tit because the back was constantly stuffed with scuba gear or a snowboard etc etc
3) I didn't want two cars where one would do. (Unfortunately this is really reason one dressed up as "I'd like a 997 GT3 but can't really afford one because I'd need a second practical car as well!")
4) It is less ostentatious....not living in the home counties this is an issue because replacing keyed body panels every 2 months gets expensive and tiresome.
5) Its performance can be exploited almost regardless of the conditions. Whilst the car does not defy physics, it stands to reason that putting down 420hp through four wheels onto greasy A/B road tarmac, is always going to be preferable to putting down 500hp through two....if making progress rather than looking good is concerned. Not being Walter Rorhl, (although you could hardly meet a more humble man), the first is more important to me.
A couple of weeks ago I was up in Brecon on flooded, muddy roads, pouring rain, fog and the odd patch of snow and I didn't seem to have to drive much slower than I did in the dry....I went over Stoney Pass at a huge rate.
I'm presently bikeless but I had a ZX12R that does the 1/4 in 10.0 @ 145 for the ultimate acceleration rush. I don't expect my car to deliver that type of accleration.
6) The E92 M3 and MB C63 may be faster but I like the Audi's capability, pedigree, build quality and understated image.
7) The M3 genre of cars just seems to attract a crowd I don't really want to be associated with....that is my prejudice. Great car no doubt but not one I've ever hankered after owning. That said, my neighbour had a CSL and I'm always disappointed I never got a ride in it.
It doesn't matter to me if someone has a faster car because I think the RS4 package is the one to beat.
9) Putting the 30+K miles I do a year on a Porsche is going to crush its residuals.
One day I'd love to own a GT3 but realistically I can't see my budget ever stretching to include that type of vehicle and a second practical car so its more likely I'll be keeping the RS4, suffering its flaws and getting another bike...this time for the track only.
Merry Christmas!
Nice to see some educated comment not prejudiced vitriole!
In the end I chose a 07 RS4 over a 03/04 996TT (it really only boiled down to these two) for various reasons:
1) Because my budget didn't really stretch any further and I'd get a new car over a second hand one...with all the potential issues that solves. I have to admit though, it was the first new car I'd ever bought, because buying new always struck me as crazy.
2) Although Porsche ownership for me represents the pinnacle, aside from perhaps the Cayenne, they're all essentially toys with nil practical value. You can get a suitcase in one and thats about it. I don't have a family, and still it didn't quite have enough space to allow me to pursue my outdoors hobbies without looking like a tit because the back was constantly stuffed with scuba gear or a snowboard etc etc
3) I didn't want two cars where one would do. (Unfortunately this is really reason one dressed up as "I'd like a 997 GT3 but can't really afford one because I'd need a second practical car as well!")
4) It is less ostentatious....not living in the home counties this is an issue because replacing keyed body panels every 2 months gets expensive and tiresome.
5) Its performance can be exploited almost regardless of the conditions. Whilst the car does not defy physics, it stands to reason that putting down 420hp through four wheels onto greasy A/B road tarmac, is always going to be preferable to putting down 500hp through two....if making progress rather than looking good is concerned. Not being Walter Rorhl, (although you could hardly meet a more humble man), the first is more important to me.
A couple of weeks ago I was up in Brecon on flooded, muddy roads, pouring rain, fog and the odd patch of snow and I didn't seem to have to drive much slower than I did in the dry....I went over Stoney Pass at a huge rate.
I'm presently bikeless but I had a ZX12R that does the 1/4 in 10.0 @ 145 for the ultimate acceleration rush. I don't expect my car to deliver that type of accleration.
6) The E92 M3 and MB C63 may be faster but I like the Audi's capability, pedigree, build quality and understated image.
7) The M3 genre of cars just seems to attract a crowd I don't really want to be associated with....that is my prejudice. Great car no doubt but not one I've ever hankered after owning. That said, my neighbour had a CSL and I'm always disappointed I never got a ride in it.
It doesn't matter to me if someone has a faster car because I think the RS4 package is the one to beat.9) Putting the 30+K miles I do a year on a Porsche is going to crush its residuals.
One day I'd love to own a GT3 but realistically I can't see my budget ever stretching to include that type of vehicle and a second practical car so its more likely I'll be keeping the RS4, suffering its flaws and getting another bike...this time for the track only.
Merry Christmas!
58 C6 RS6 Stage 2+
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi
Previous:
2000 B5 S4 MRC 550 Saloon
2007 B7 RS4 Saloon
1994 S2 Coupe
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi
Previous:
2000 B5 S4 MRC 550 Saloon
2007 B7 RS4 Saloon
1994 S2 Coupe
At least Audi will provide you with a car to test drive, Merc can't even give you a date when they can, if they can.
To top this the salesman said, "Sir, do you really need to drive such an exclusive and sought after car?" At which point I wished him will in his new career when he leaves the dealership, cus he won't last with that attitude.
To top this the salesman said, "Sir, do you really need to drive such an exclusive and sought after car?" At which point I wished him will in his new career when he leaves the dealership, cus he won't last with that attitude.
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Must be a merc thing, when I drove from Bath to Birmingham to look at a new E55, saleman had much the same attitude, finally spoke to sales manager who had me out in the car in 5 minutes and a price on my C32 when I got back.
The salesman was no longer working for the company when I returned a few days later to collect the new car.
The salesman was no longer working for the company when I returned a few days later to collect the new car.
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BlingBling
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Was it the Merc garage near st andrews? Becasue I had pretty much the same experience when looking at a CLK 55AMG. The salesman was an arse. Was totally disinterested in trying to be helpful. I said I would like a test drive due to my concerns with the autobox and his response was people who buy mercs do not have test drives. I said fair enough and walked away. Put me right of and helped me to make up my mind.
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Housemaster
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Housemaster
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I don't fully agree with this, and here is why.alex_123_fra wrote:The M400 was the greatest driver's car I ever drove and in my opinion much better balanced, better steering, better performing than the GT3RS, CSL and even 360 Challenge stradale I test drove. Miles ahead than my previous M3. True it did not have as classic an engine as the others, but it still wiped the floor with much more expensive machinery and having a "driver's" car mattered to me at the time.
I nearly bought an M400, but I went for a GT3 instead after driving them both (and others such as the Sagaris) at length. The M400 was a very impressive car, but I felt it was very much a "parts bin special" and at the time it did not feel it was £60K well spent, which the current value of M400's seems to indicate. It was very quick with amazing poise and balance with great traction like the GT3, but the engine was less than inspiring and no where near as well put together and practical. I would also say the steering was not quite as communcative as the GT3's, if very very close. The GT3 is all in the setup, and if you get in a bad one, or one with Porsche settings it can feel a little understeer prone and off putting, but get it done right and you have yourself an incredible feeling helm.
I did 20K in my GT3 in 14 months with not the slightest issue, I would not expect to be able to do the same with an M400, or wheel it into a local OPC for a spot of work should I have had a problem, or come to think of it travel down to Monaco for 1 week with my wife full of her bags!
Great car no question, I may have one next year as I think it would make a great weekend car, but I used the GT3 as my day to day transport, and as I say I would not have been confident to do the same with an M400.
You have to be careful when comparing to more exotic machinery ala housemasters posts. One mans runaround is anothers pride and joy as is the rs4 for me. But if I could afford a gt3 then im sure my perspective of the rs4 would be different. I certainly aspire to be in this situation at some point in the not to distant future. The top gear program I found a little irritating as Clarkson found the Rs4 "epic" in his first venture against the climber yet this time it was there to make up the numbers. I found it equally amusing that sudenly all the jornos seem to be changing their opinion of the m3!!!! Okay so we know its great round a track but surely that should be the csls patch when it arrives? As was said earlier why dont they put it on a typical UK road like they did with the C2s, M6 and AMV8.
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