414bhp or ???bhp

4.2 V8 32v Naturally Aspirated - 414 bhp
VARSITY
4th Gear
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:30 pm
Location: UK/Germany

Post by VARSITY » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:34 am

SR71 wrote:You won't get Audi under the TDA unless you show a significant number of cars all dyno on an engine dynamometer at well below 414.
You don't need to prove anything other than the problems with your own car. You must also understand that TDA relates to your issues only if you have a problem, unless a class action is taking place. Also you will not be able to go after Audi unless you bought your car directly from them, which is going to be unlikely. Your contract will be with the seller, i.e: the dealer.

There have been cases in the UK courts and 5% has been the figures allowed to date. So if you allow this your car should average 393bhp over a reasonable spread of say 3 seperate runs on different dynos. Just look at this thread, how many over 414bhp?

How many B7 owners have had there cars power read and reached 414bhp, further on how many owners have had a second or 3rd reading taken. I would estimate at 1 or 2. None of them have posted results here for sure.

It will cost some time and money, and it will need to be done properly, probably by the 1st owner within the 3 year warranty period, but someone will take this to task and I would believe they have a great chance of winning.

Good luck to them if and when it does happen.
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

User avatar
martinhans
1st Gear
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:41 am

Post by martinhans » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:02 pm

I don't think you could win this case at all based on at the wheels dyno runs because there is too many variables polluting the test data.
B7 RS4 Avant Sprint Blue/Black Recaros: Carbon Ceramic Brakes, Tech pack, Double Glazing, Solar Roof and Stuff

Sold
92 S8 D2 Ebony Black Pearl/Sable Grey
02 TT 3.2 DSG Avus Silver/Silver
01 RS4 B5 Avus Silver/Black
98 S8 D1 Jasper/Black

SR71
5th Gear
Posts: 1376
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:58 am

Post by SR71 » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:30 pm

I agree Martinhans....

Surely you'd have to dyno your engine to see whether it produces 420hp or 309KW?

And even if you won your case, what do you do then?

Money back and buy a......M3?

:roll:
58 C6 RS6 Stage 2+
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi

Previous:

2000 B5 S4 MRC 550 Saloon
2007 B7 RS4 Saloon
1994 S2 Coupe

User avatar
alex_123_fra
4th Gear
Posts: 649
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:57 pm

Post by alex_123_fra » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:44 pm

SR71 wrote:I agree Martinhans....

Surely you'd have to dyno your engine to see whether it produces 420hp or 309KW?

And even if you won your case, what do you do then?

Money back and buy a......M3?

:roll:
Yes I agree, I wouldn't believe anything except an engine dyno if I were audi. It is far too much hassle and cost though and I doubt anyone would go through with it.

Aside from the fact that your car would be out of action for a while, Audi would probably want the engine to test for themselves. If they actually proved the car makes the stated power or within an acceptable percentage of it, I would imagine they would get you to pay for the whole effort.

Why not just sell it and buy something else if you don't have faith in the power output?
Current: C7 RS6 - Black, VW Passat CC R36 - Black, Freelander 2 - Black
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS

VARSITY
4th Gear
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:30 pm
Location: UK/Germany

Post by VARSITY » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:05 pm

The law is based on reasonable facts and suppositions.

Is it reasonable to have to pull your engine out of the car to prove it is down on power? When rolling roads are used throughout the industry to prove all types of engineering work and tuning.
Is it reasonable to believe your car produces what the engineer tells you at the RR? After all he/she is a proffessional and credible witness.
Is it reasonable to take the mean figures based on 3 seperate RR installations? Again calculations complete by an competent person, in most cases.
Is it reasonable to question what is printed in a brochure that enabled you to make your purchase?

The costs involved in going through a court process would most probably run into £10s of £1000s of pounds, if it were to go all the way, vs the cost of buying the car back and reselling it, losses of £1000s instead. In all circumstances you will have to prove, in cases of loss, that you attempted to mitigate any of that loss. The whole issue is weighted in your favour as a consumer. Audi also stand behind their "goodwill prceedures" on most occassions where the going gets tough.

Then theres the press and industry interest of what will happen. The recent press from Evo and Autocar about claimed BHP figures or rather the lack of claimed BHP would make any manufacturer worried.

The may not be a lawyer in town that would take this on as a "no win etc" but if you have the balls and believe the product has been misrepresented then do it.

I stand by my findings and state that the majority of UK supplied RS4s are less that manufactureres stated 414BHP.

Whether you are happy and willing to accept tis lack of power and the car fits the reasoning behind the purchase is then your choice and not a something that has been forced on you.
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

VARSITY
4th Gear
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:30 pm
Location: UK/Germany

Post by VARSITY » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:19 pm

alex_123_fra wrote:
SR71 wrote:I agree Martinhans....

Surely you'd have to dyno your engine to see whether it produces 420hp or 309KW?

And even if you won your case, what do you do then?

Money back and buy a......M3?

:roll:
Yes I agree, I wouldn't believe anything except an engine dyno if I were audi. It is far too much hassle and cost though and I doubt anyone would go through with it.

Aside from the fact that your car would be out of action for a while, Audi would probably want the engine to test for themselves. If they actually proved the car makes the stated power or within an acceptable percentage of it, I would imagine they would get you to pay for the whole effort.

Why not just sell it and buy something else if you don't have faith in the power output?
Then the question is, how much are you prepared to lose?

Whereas the question should be, why should I lose a damn penny!
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

User avatar
GardinerG
Top Gear
Posts: 2285
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:58 pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Post by GardinerG » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:31 pm

Money back and buy a......M3?
Hmmmm, as long as it's not a Russian M3 you'll be fine. I hear they are down a couple of cylinders as well. 8)

(sorry Dude, just teasing!)

User avatar
alex_123_fra
4th Gear
Posts: 649
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:57 pm

Post by alex_123_fra » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:41 pm

VARSITY wrote:
alex_123_fra wrote:
SR71 wrote:I agree Martinhans....

Surely you'd have to dyno your engine to see whether it produces 420hp or 309KW?

And even if you won your case, what do you do then?

Money back and buy a......M3?

:roll:
Yes I agree, I wouldn't believe anything except an engine dyno if I were audi. It is far too much hassle and cost though and I doubt anyone would go through with it.

Aside from the fact that your car would be out of action for a while, Audi would probably want the engine to test for themselves. If they actually proved the car makes the stated power or within an acceptable percentage of it, I would imagine they would get you to pay for the whole effort.

Why not just sell it and buy something else if you don't have faith in the power output?
Then the question is, how much are you prepared to lose?

Whereas the question should be, why should I lose a damn penny!
My question would be, what do I have to gain by going through such a stressful and complicated process. The answer is probably nothing.

Why would one lose anything over and above the car's standard depreciation if they sell up? If you feel a car is underpowered and there are no mechanical faults identified by your dealer, it is far simpler to move on. Going on a crusade to prove RS4s are underpowered is very likely to backfire on any brave individual who attempts it.
Current: C7 RS6 - Black, VW Passat CC R36 - Black, Freelander 2 - Black
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS

SR71
5th Gear
Posts: 1376
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:58 am

Post by SR71 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:23 pm

Not wishing to have a pissing contest as you sound like a lawyer type....

Is it reasonable to have to pull your engine out of the car to prove it is down on power?

If the manufacturer is claiming the engine produces 420hp (my brochures say 420 not 414?), then I don't see that you have a choice.

When rolling roads are used throughout the industry to prove all types of engineering work and tuning.

Given the debate on this site (and all kinds of other car enthusiast sites), I'm not sure that RR's are good for judging anything other than relative performance. Like I mentioned before, I'm not a dyno engineer but working backwards towards a known answer by fiddling the constants involved isn't going to impress Audi.

Is it reasonable to believe your car produces what the engineer tells you at the RR? After all he/she is a proffessional and credible witness.

Not wishing to tar all dyno operators with the same brush but I've little confidence in many outfits. Some are more professional than others.

Without knowing the ambient conditions at which Audi claim their figures there are huge numbers of variables that will affect the end RR result from ambient temperature, pressure, humidity, tyre pressures, supposed losses through the drive-train, what gear you are in etc etc

So IMHO, the answer to this question is far from unequivocal. Many owners on this site give the impression they have little faith in the numbers they've achieved.

This will only serve to undermine their case because no-one has pulled their block out and stuck it on a engine dynamometer to get to the "raw data"!

How about someone buy that EBay block and do the above before they stick it in their conversion?

Is it reasonable to take the mean figures based on 3 seperate RR installations? Again calculations complete by an competent person, in most cases.

Who knows? Have they all been conducted under the same controlled conditions? Are they even the same type of RR?

I know a little about nonlinear mathematics and the internal conbustion engine is highly nonlinear!

Is it reasonable to question what is printed in a brochure that enabled you to make your purchase?

IMHO it is reasonable to suppose that my car will deliver the power Audi claim under similar conditions.

The suggestion is that towards 0C the RS4 is on the numbers but that as temperatures increase the power drops off substantially.

I think t_urbo saw significant amounts of timing being taken out at high rpms due, supposedly, to low RON fuel.

How about someone tell us whether a similar thing happens at high ambient temps?

Has anyone got a dyno plot at 0C?

From where I'm sitting, everything is stacked against me as Audi are going to pull my car into Quattro Gmbh, shove it on their highly controlled apparatus, test it under conditions I have no knowledge about because no one has ever told me under what conditions the RS4 is supposed to generate 420hp, and make me look like a fool for even questioning the claim!

No thanks but kudos to anyone who is willing to have a go!
58 C6 RS6 Stage 2+
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi

Previous:

2000 B5 S4 MRC 550 Saloon
2007 B7 RS4 Saloon
1994 S2 Coupe

User avatar
martinhans
1st Gear
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:41 am

Post by martinhans » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:54 pm

SR71 has answered pretty much most of the points i was going to cover in response and is correct:

before putting your faith in RR results over mfrs test claims you should read this, you will perhaps have a better understanding of the difference between an ENGINE dynometer and a CHASSIC dynometer

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/POWER3.htm

As pointed out by the article and by SR71 ALL makers including BMW, PORSCHE, FERRARI and all the F1 teams test their engines in a engine test cell, these cells cost several million pounds are a controlled test environment where the engine is put on a mount and every aspect of its operation from fuelling, lubrication, cooling and air quality, ambient temperature can be set precisely within a tolerance. The maker will use fuel that is certified for its octane rating, oil that is certified for its viscosity, spark plugs etc etc all to a exact tolerant standard. The tests are then run by a industry standard piece of SW that runs specific test programs on an engine. To generate the figure they use they will do runs on a selection of engines from random batches and take an average median of the results.

Due to the way in which engines are now computer designed and machined the tolerance of error in each engine will be less than 0.5 percent from the design with 0.1 percent or better typical of modern laser measured CNC type lathes - given that Audi will have stress tested the engine running up to 500bhp and then output the engine at 20-25 percent less than its maximum stressed output to improve service life and running costs you can be fairly sure the 414bhp figure will be on the numbers.

Trying to discredit a multi-million pound test facility with state of the art ISO standard measuring equipment and processes carried out by Engineers with PHD's and years of test experience is going to be a hard call even if you decide to give someone like Ricardo 1 million quid to run tests to the same tolerances to be admissable as evidence.

YOu are not comparing like for like SR71 is perfectly correct that using a chassis dyno to back calculate engine output is the equivelent of guessing how much flour is in a cake after its baked. Since you don't have a veriifed set of figures for transmission loss which can vary down to the test conditions you cannot accurately calculate power at the flywheel without having a precise figure for the chassic as well which you could only calculate by having a certified result for the engine to work from.

RR's are good as useless at calculating engine output, you can only take relative measurements - i.e gains between the at the wheels measurements you cannot produce absoloute figures for the engine since you have too many variables.

most RR sessions are carried out in industrial sheds, with variable temperatures, using variable quality of fuel that was pumped from a PFS that may have sediment or water in its tanks, your oil is in a unknown state of degradation, your spark plugs are in a unknown state of degradation, you have no way of knowing how accurately the chassis dyno has been calculated or that the figures used for transmission losses in any way represent the actual losses, as a result its unlikely you could reproduce the same result 20 times on one car within the same degree of tolerance that audi could on their engine test cell. therefore your "evidence" will not be of a sufficient standard to meet international test validations and therefore is just not credible.

SR71 is correct to state that if you wanted to pursue this case then Audi can quite rightly expect the engine to be lifted and taken to quattro and be put on a test cell and tested under the IDENTICAL conditions to the ones they generated their original figure from, and the likelihood is your engine will be putting out between 410-420bhp depending on its mileage and wear and level of carbon build up.

The variations in "Power" that are being mooted are based on highly suspect RR test sessions that have no substance - you cannot say for certain any of them have used accurate transmission loss calculations to generate an exact figure, given the nature of modern engine control that adjusts fuelling according to ambient temperature, air quality, oil quality, fuel quality et al then it stands to reason that all engines including Porsches, FErrari, BMW et al will offer a variable amount of power output according to operating environment, its a known fact that F1 engines can lose as much as 100 or more BHP in places like brazil due to high ambient air temperature and therefore low air density - this is an accepted point of motor engineering and beyond Audi's control.

If you read the wording of the performance claims it clearly states MAXIMUM POWER output, i.e the maximum the engine will prdocue under a certain set of ambient operating conditions, this is not a cast iron warranty from Audi (or BMW or PORSCHE) that you are going to get 414BHP regardless of conditions.

The RS4 engine is a highly technical racing spec engine, in commonw ith such engines it uses variable fuel mapping and controls to ensure the engine is always delivering its optimum performance based on operating temperature, intake density etc and therfore its natural that it will vary its power output. But this will also affect all other modern NA engines such as the new M3 unit as well, its less perveland in forced induction since supercharging or turbocharging is forced induction and you are less reliant on natural air density to deliver power.

As for people suggesting quattro's higher transmission losses over BMW's leads to more ""Lost power" - this is an acceptable part of chassic engineering, while the M3 loses less power in transmission the RS4 offers more mechanical grip and therefore traction so its transmission loss is vastly compensated by the amount of power it can deliver to traction as opposed to simply spinning the wheels and losing grip.

You are honestly wasting your time with this, there is no smoke and mirrors, no grand conspiracy that audi are nobbling engines, and no misdescription, just the usual incorrect belief that you can accurately measure engine power with a CHASSIS dyno which is usually caused by RR operators keen to sell their services not fully explaining the fact most of the figures they use are simply guesses.
B7 RS4 Avant Sprint Blue/Black Recaros: Carbon Ceramic Brakes, Tech pack, Double Glazing, Solar Roof and Stuff

Sold
92 S8 D2 Ebony Black Pearl/Sable Grey
02 TT 3.2 DSG Avus Silver/Silver
01 RS4 B5 Avus Silver/Black
98 S8 D1 Jasper/Black

User avatar
AntoRS4
1st Gear
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:09 am
Location: Italy

Post by AntoRS4 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:03 pm

uhm.. seems that there is some miss understanding over there.

from now it's better to use the ISU (international system of units)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI

KW is the international unit for the power measurment, BHP and HP are not the same thing

1 PS (BHP) = 75 kp·m/s = 0.73549875 kW = 0.9863201652997627 hp (SAE)

so 414BHP = 420Hp = 309Kw

our dynometer is certificate and like all the measurement tools it has an accuracy percentage value (and it's the same for all the cars )

in the last months we have testes 12 RS4 but for this comparison I'll use the best result. 395Hp = 389BHP = 290kw

to remove all my doubts i've done some tests:

same dynometer for all the cars
all "quattro"
all audi
same temperature in the room for all the tests ( -/+ 5 °C )
values are corrected with the (SAE)standard formula ( atm. presure/temperature)

s3 2.0T claimed power 265hp = 261BHP = 195Kw -> our dynometer 270hp = 266BHP = 199kw ( +1.8% )
a5 3.0TDI claimed power 240hp = 237BHP = 176Kw -> our dynometer 252hp = 248BHP = 185kw ( +5.0% )

now the big surprise S5, very similar to RS4 , same V8,gearbox,Quattro 4WD, Torsen Centre Differential 40:60,Tires 255/35 R19 Y :
s5 4.2V8 claimed power 354hp = 349BHP = 260Kw -> our dynometer 365hp = 360BHP = 268kw ( +3.2% )

r8 claimed power 420hp = 414BHP = 309Kw -> our dynometer 399hp = 393BHP = 293kw ( -5.2% )
rs4 claimed power 420hp = 414BHP = 309Kw -> our dynometer 395hp = 389BHP = 290kw ( -6.3% )

road tests and acceleration times give the same power figure for all the tested cars

everybody is free to brain-storm on the results, but please don't suppose that my dyno is broken or that we manipulate data...

i drive and tune powerful cars everyday, and i can feel the power also without the aid of a dyno,
i need a 4wd Avant to move with my family and RS4 is the best you can buy today... but the stock RS4 will be better with the claimed power...

no more comment will come from me about this topic
CIAO from Italy

RussianM3_dude
3rd Gear
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:01 pm
Location: Cheese Land

Post by RussianM3_dude » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:12 pm

My bum dyno definetly tells me that there is power missing. I live at 500meters above sea level and on a hot-ish day, the car feels sluggish. The 2nd and 3rd gears in particular are dissapointing. Now that the temperatures have dropped to just above freezing, it is a bit better. However me too I was thinking of taking the car to a dyno, however I said, sod it. Even if I find it's down on power, what am I going to do? Take everybody to court?

VARSITY
4th Gear
Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:30 pm
Location: UK/Germany

Post by VARSITY » Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:59 pm

I just wish I could add more comments to this!!

:biggrin3:
Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

SR71
5th Gear
Posts: 1376
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:58 am

Post by SR71 » Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:14 pm

AntonRS4,

Thanks for pointing out the difference between "hp" and "bhp"...I'd not even clocked that subtlety.

Your experience on the matter sounds like exactly that which RS4 owners can benefit from...hopefully your contributions will continue.

I understand that a 5C temperature difference, other things like pressure and humidity being kept the same, can be responsible for 2-3% change in bhp.

Have you applied dyno correction factors to your results which remove the above effects?

Can you tell us whether Italian M5's also fail to generate the claimed bhp figures?

How about F430's?

It strikes me that, the more highly tuned an engine is, the more likely it is that the figures produced will only approximate those claimed if the test conditions exactly replicate those extant when the engine was developed and tested.

Both the above cars represent highly tuned V10 and V8 engines.

It seems strange to me that if other Audis consistently generate better power figures than claimed, why should the RS4 be any different?

I am not disputing your results merely suggesting that the conclusion you/others arrive at on the basis of your experience is incorrect.

I'm personally interested in understanding the reason for a supposed discrepancy in measured versus claimed performance but my money at the moment is on the fact that, rather like the Lorenz attractor, small changes in initial conditions have the potential to generate substantially different results.
58 C6 RS6 Stage 2+
58 C6 A6 Allroad 2.7 TDi

Previous:

2000 B5 S4 MRC 550 Saloon
2007 B7 RS4 Saloon
1994 S2 Coupe

mixja
Neutral
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Post by mixja » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:59 pm

AntonRS4 a few questions:

- What do the cars you have listed make in terms of power AT THE WHEELS?

- When calculating flywheel power, do you take into account additional drag and loss at higher RPMs?

- Interesting comparison with the S5 - I understand it makes more torque (440NM vs 430NM for the RS4) - how does the torque curve compare between the two?

Post Reply

Return to “RS4 (B7 Typ 8E) 2006–2008”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 53 guests