Remapped...

[hertfordshire1]

Like many others I am reading this thread with great interest.
So to make sure i'm understanding what i've read.....
1. car goes into MRC
2. they split open the ECU box, requiring new tampering screws to hide the intrusion. how much are these and if ordered through Audi would they not suspect anything?
3. 2-4 hours later the remap is complete and the top speed limit removed.
4. car feels much quicker in non sport/sport mode, rev limit is also raised.
5. you pay £600 plus vat for the work.
6. fuel consumption is increased due to more power for less throttle

So far no issues with the remaps.

have I got that right?

Steve

[55JWB]

I believe replacement tamper proof bolts are part of the price("buttons" to buy), and they are supplied by MRC.. (did not have any when I went)

Only issue could be that you are potentially voiding your warranty and you are likely to face stiffer insurance premiums...

Some migh jump in and say the warranty is instantly void, however Dealers have. in the past. been very used to 'mapped' cars and in some cases form relationships with the tuners directly so are more 'sympathetic'

If your windscreen wiper motor packs up, its very unlikely that your remap has caused this and no reason why it wont be replaced under warranty, if your engine fails, there would be a closer inspection...

[sunshine]

Being on the south coast I'm closer to DMS than MRC (though its not that far really) and have no prior experience of either. But reading this it seems both tuners are offering laregely similar performance gains form their re-maps. So it could just be a matter of location / preference / experience / price / after-sales (re-maps or "warranty"). I'm really interested in this route but haves ome reservations over warranty disputes if something does go wrong

However some are arguing one method is potentially more traceable than the other. Can I ask a stupid novice question:

If the rev limiter is extended to 8400rpm, in the event of any form of engine failure or fault (or even during servicing), surely this will appear on any diagnostic data log during the dealers' work? As the standard is 8250, then there must have been a re-map to give a red-line of above this... Am I being thick?

I'm sure on a previous post someione reported that Audi could tell exact engine revs, temp, throttle, etc,.. when their failure occurred. Are there any "understanding" dealers in this area?

[W8PMC]

Your assumptions are somewhat correct, however a dealers diagnostic machine won't print out a full data log of engine usage, just fault codes. Audi could no doubt data log an engine if they felt the need to, but this would certainly be the exception rather than the rule. TBH, if Audi wanted to play hard ball, they could do this without the car having a re-map, as in the owners manual it uses terms like continuous use of etc. so if a data log showed that 50% of the time you're bouncing off the rev-limiter (whether that be 8250 or 8400) they could state that you abused the engine & a warranty claim is void.

My dealer is very understanding, but i guess others may not be. At the end of the day, you're taking a small risk as regards Audi warranty, however & this comes back to my post on the Revo thread, it really does come down to trust & reputation. I know that in the event of a total engine failure caused directly by the re-map & therefore if Audi refused to play ball (highly unlikely), that DMS would step up to the plate & take the claim. I know this for DMS & i would imagine the same applies to MRC, however you'll need to direct that question either to MRC or one of their customers as i don't know their standing on Warranties.

The ecu removal & break open vs ODBII is purely noticable to the naked eye, as say it would be with any other item with a seal such as a laptop or computer ecu. Once the seal is broken it's broken, however the replacement security bolts will make this harder to spot. The ODBII route is a cable into the diag port of the car & straight into the ecu, so nothing is done externally to the ecu, it's not even touched.

[VARSITY]

That said when ABT, Audi approved tuner in the UK at te time, did just that, had my ECU and broke it open to re-map it. That cost £2350+VAT in 2003 but kept the warranty. I went on to spend £15k with MTM in Germany on the same car removing the re-map from ABT as it was not that great, new turbos, exhaust etc, etc.

It only becomes a problem when a problem occurs.

If MRC and DMS will reflash to your specific original map and Audi don't find that you have had work done you should be OK, although as discussd here in the past, the concensus is, if the try hard enough, whatever way it has been done they can and will tell. Just depends on how well you get on with the dealer and how much they want to help you!

I am sure one day there will be a thread appear here, 'HELP, MY DEALER WON@T FIX MY RE-MAPED CAR!!' at this time we can all look back and wonder what ifs.

[confusionhunter]

Hi Paul, all you say is true, but it should be said that flashes via the ODB port are instantly regcognisable by audi as the ECU keeps a flash count. If Audi see you have any more flashes than their records then the game is up. IMHO thats far closer to their std procedure and more noticable than pulling the ecu apart to see if they can find traces of tampering. As we all know the first thing Dealers do nowadays isnt open the bonnet but plug in a computer!
TBH its all a matter of opinion, I think tuners will offer either or and you may have the option. At the end of the day: the dealer can play hard ball or be reasonable and thats a more a deciding factor on any claim than whether the car has actually been mapped or not. Certainly any engine warrenty work will be complicated or even void if a remap is involved.

[W8PMC]

Correct, however from my experience, a dealer can't access a flash count from their diagnostics machines, this can only be done by Audi themselves on some other computer thingy & either the car or ECU would need to go back to Audi for checking, as a dealer does not have access to the information (it was Audi that told me this). Also worth noting that dealers very often do NOT keep a count of ECU flashes, although i'm sure some are better/worse than others.

The broken seal on the ECU is a tad easier to spot by a switched on Technician, but again only if looking.

Nothing assured either way & the best lines of defence are firstly a very strong dealer relationship & secondly a tuner with substance, longevity & trustworthy, so at least most of the bases are covered in the event of a disaster.

[55JWB]

Vagcom shows the flashcount, I have seen mine... surely Audi software has the same feature...??

[W8PMC]

Vagcom shows the flashcount, I have seen mine... surely Audi software has the same feature...??

I'd heard VAGCOM showed something like this, however is it not ECU access, rather than a note of full flashes?? What does Vagcom show for your car??

Only quoting what Audi have told me, however i've yet to get a straight answer from Audi on most things, so took this info with a pinch of salt

[drcarrera]

kind of makes you wonder why Audi don't make it like this out of the box if the power increases are modest and therefore don't compromise their tolerances - anything that helps mpg would be of benefit to the RS4!

Exactly my thought! If it's that easy to make the car quicker, more driveable and more fuel efficient why didn't Audi do it in the first place? Or were they simply trying to make it just that teeny weeny bit better than the M3

Almost seems too good to be true. There must be some downside lurking somewhere, surely ...

[simple1]

The manufacturer, no matter who they are will always err on the side of conservatism, and they are more worried about extracting the lowest form of CO2 than overall power. Its a balancing act for them. Many cars in the past have become what they originally should have been, ie, when they first put the B5 engine together, it was producing cica 450 bhp.. they then detuned it to preserve its life and to obtain the lowest figures for CO2 and H/carbons

[W8PMC]

Simon, the same applied to the B7, as Audi were testing at far higher outputs than the final production car has & as i think you said, they were bench testing the engine to over 8800RPM, but pegged it back.

Also manufacturers have to take more stringent emission levels into account, such as California etc. as they can't produce the same model with different outputs for different countries/markets, so most cars have to be pegged back to meet the most stringent omission legislation which i believe is currently California.

[55JWB]

Vagcom shows the flashcount, I have seen mine... surely Audi software has the same feature...??

I'd heard VAGCOM showed something like this, however is it not ECU access, rather than a note of full flashes?? What does Vagcom show for your car??

Only quoting what Audi have told me, however i've yet to get a straight answer from Audi on most things, so took this info with a pinch of salt

Ran this tonight, as mine has not been 'flashed' it is only showing the one tech update that was done in the workshop when I picked the car up from dealer....

[img]modules/pnCPG/Coppermine/albums/userpics/10812/Vag-Com~0.JPG[/img]

[VARSITY]

Have just got back from having a beer with a friend who is a MASTER TECH for Audi.

Drum roll please!

OBD port, detectable.
Open the ECU, only detectable as to whether the case has been opened, no seals present, its just the bolts that are the give away. Also if they feel that they have a problem they can and will send the ECU to be tested against what should be in the car.

As he said, ALL work done by Audi on your car will be logged on the Audi central computer and the dealer flashes are logged. Whether or not this is looked at is neither here nor there, its only when there is a problem that they may look into it.

His attitude was, the dealer can make the choice to do what they want, however they don't get paid for work they don't do so it's in their interest to get the job to repair it if something goes amiss. Just hope that you don't get the dealer that does want to look into it.

Incidently he also told me that some of the early press cars were mapped, as all of the press cars are, alledgedly. Wouldn't or couldn't tell me by who, although he told me who did the VW and Seat press cars, did I fall over!!!???

[W8PMC]

Nice one gents, good to know.

Out of curiosity Varsity, when you say OBD detectable, but Open ECU only detectable if the bolts are not replaced, how does that work?? I can understand the issue shown on VAGCOM or an Audi system showing an ECU flash, but would new code flashed directly onto an ECU rather than via the OBD port be just as obvious as per VAGCOM?? Also, the Seat & VW press cars are (unless this has changed very recently) re-mapped by REVO, that's old news.

May also be worth checking what a re-mapped car shows, as i've been told (by 3 different tuners) that for obvious reasons, their re-map does not stamp such an obvious fingerprint on the cars ECU, hence why (& not only DMS) can state that their re-map is virtually un-detectable. If all these re-maps really do leave such an obvious signature then any such tuner claims are. Worth stating, the above is opinion & only repeating what i've been told. TBH i'm not overly bothered, but would be worth knowing if a decent re-map does leave such an obvious footprint.

Saying that, i'm at Awesome GTI this afternoon & i'm sure they must have VAGCOM. What screen/function do you access the ECU Flash information??

Failing that, could someone with a re-mapped RS4 & VAGCOM check out what theirs says??