M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the dry

[chris22]

Driving up the A9 in the S3 last night minding my own business temperatures reached -11 and the snow began to fall, my arse was nipping on the snow covered corners then all of a sudden a bloody 328i flew past me like I was stood still [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
Not having any of this being overtook by a rear wheel drive car in these conditons I speeded up and caught him/her up.
The speeds were getting crazy and my car all over the road [img]images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
Feck this I thought Im going to kill myself here, driving beyond my limits so I slowed down and let the BMW go [img]images/graemlins/bigwave.gif[/img]
I would'nt say I was a good driver nor bad. Done a few trackdays and rally lessons just your average driver.
The moral of the story is just cos u drive 4 wheel drive it does'nt mean you can drive any faster than the 2 wheel drive guru's.
Hat's off to the 328i driver [img]images/graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img] IF your still alive.
Bass [img]images/graemlins/s3addict.gif[/img]

[daddyjohal]

in the snow it's not gonna make a massive amount of difference as to whether you're in a four or rear wheel drive in that although initial traction is great in the four wheel drive, the fundamental laws of physics stil apply to both cars ie. there's bugger all friction/grip to be had on cold and slippery roads so you're both pretty much about the same. you'll get mmore power down on to the tarmac in your S3 but you'll have no more grip on the road surface at hih speeds. it's a case of whoever's stupid enough to go too fast in those conditions. you did the right thing mate. as you quite rightly said, let's hope the BMW dude is still alive to tell the tale.

[jeffw]

Not quite sure what u mean by cheap and cheerful engineering on the Subaru apart from the awful interior and wafer thin (hence light) exterior panels. Otherwise the overall reliability and mechanical build quality completely blows the S4 away - not convinced? then just read the numerous complaints regarding various bits and bobs going pop on stock and modded S4s. Compare this to virtually faultless reliability of Subarus and Mitsubishis (as backed up by years of successful JD Power surveys). As far as handling and performance goes, the S4 doesn't stand a chance against Subaru and Mitsubishi. Consider this - a Mitsubishi Evo with full manufacturer 3 year warranty with 450bhp and a shed load of torque for less than £40 fully kitted out, capable of 0-60 in less than 4 secs and 0-100 in under 9 seconds. Both the Impreza and Mitsubishi are lighter, more nimble and handle better than the S4 (the vast majority of motoring 'experts' agree), so they are much easier to drive 'on the limit'. The reason i switched form the Impreza to the M3 was simply because the Impreza was too easy to drive near the limit and i wanted something that would be more of a challenge. Unfortunately it wasn't the most reliable car in the world so it went.

Not sure the fabled Subaru/Mitsubishi reliablility is not an 'urban myth' now. If you look at Scoobynet the number engines failing on standard and especially modded Imprezas is significant. A 450BHP Evo is going to be a very fragile device which will fo bang. As to handling....a standard Impreza doesn't handle very well and compared to a decent rear-wheel drive car it's pants (944 Turbo, 968CS, M3, Noble etc) once you get the anti-lift kit and alignment and springs/shocks and anti-roll bars done they are OK. They suffer from the typically Japenese suspension set-up of over sprung and under dampned (Evos & Skylines are the same). The Evos are much better but this is due to being more 'focused'....you would not want to spend 3 hours on a motorway in a FQ300 (or a Spec C Impreza).

[daddyjohal]

Not quite sure what u mean by cheap and cheerful engineering on the Subaru apart from the awful Otherwise the overall reliability and mechanical build quality completely blows the S4 away - not convinced? then just read the numerous complaints regarding various bits and bobs going pop on stock and modded S4s. Compare this to virtually faultless reliability of Subarus and Mitsubishis (as backed up by years of successful JD Power surveys). As far as handling and performance goes, the S4 doesn't stand a chance against Subaru and Mitsubishi. Consider this - a Mitsubishi Evo with full manufacturer 3 year warranty with 450bhp and a shed load of torque for less than £40 fully kitted out, capable of 0-60 in less than 4 secs and 0-100 in under 9 seconds. Both the Impreza and Mitsubishi are lighter, more nimble and handle better than the S4 (the vast majority of motoring 'experts' agree), so they are much easier to drive 'on the limit'. The reason i switched form the Impreza to the M3 was simply because the Impreza was too easy to drive near the limit and i wanted something that would be more of a challenge. Unfortunately it wasn't the most reliable car in the world so it went.

Not sure the fabled Subaru/Mitsubishi reliablility is not an 'urban myth' now. If you look at Scoobynet the number engines failing on standard and especially modded Imprezas is significant. A 450BHP Evo is going to be a very fragile device which will fo bang. As to handling....a standard Impreza doesn't handle very well and compared to a decent rear-wheel drive car it's pants (944 Turbo, 968CS, M3, Noble etc) once you get the anti-lift kit and alignment and springs/shocks and anti-roll bars done they are OK. They suffer from the typically Japenese suspension set-up of over sprung and under dampned (Evos & Skylines are the same). The Evos are much better but this is due to being interior and wafer thin (hence light) exterior panels. more 'focused'....you would not want to spend 3 hours on a motorway in a FQ300 (or a Spec C Impreza).

Constant success over the years in reliability surveys prove that the excellent reliability of these cars is no myth. The high power Mitsubishis all come with 3year warranties, so although they mat be more fragile than a standard Evo, they're still pretty reliable.

I owned two Imprezas and didn't modify the suspension on either of them. I've also owned an M3 and the Impreza handled better. The M3 rolled too much, had average steering and the chassis was slightly inert and uncommunicative. They're great handling cars (unless you're talking about the Jap imports) even in standard form, as literally hundreds of motoring press reviews across the world will testify. To say that it's 'pants' compared to a decent rear wheel drive car is just laughable. Sure it may not communicate in the way a 968 Club Sport does, but it will handle most situations on most roads in most weather conditions, wheareas the 968CS will end up facing the wrong way with most drivers on tricky roads or in poor conditions.

I've experienced both sides of this argument over many years of driving both German and Japanese performance cars on a daily basis. I'm not saying Imprezas are better cars then Porsches or Audisetc, but that they are seriously underrated by many people on this forum.

[jeffw]

The standard UK MY00 doesn't handle very well....until you take it to Powerstation and get the suspension and alignment sorted out. I did 54000 miles in my MY00 UK Impreza and I have driven 22b, P1, various STi models and they all have the same issues. They have awesome traction but they don't 'handle' (nor does a S4 for that matter).

The JD power survey results where/are based around the performance per pound and not necessarily the reliablity. My Impreza was cheap inside and had a number of issues over the 3 years of ownership whereas my wifes 5 door 1.8 VTi Civic has not one single issue in 5 years of ownership. If you ask Evo owners how reliable their cars are you'd be surprised at the answer.

[daddyjohal]

not quite sure about the MY2000, but i had a 97R plate (not brilliant) and then a 1999T (with the new engine output and suspension mods and big brakes) which was a cracker. Handled fine and went like stink with a few engine mods. I put over 60,000 miles over these two cars and they were utterly faultless. I have many mates with a variety of Skylines, Evos and Scoobys and they all are very happy with the reliability of their cars even with aftermarket mods. I never liked the 22B - found it very nervous compared to the Evo. I ordered a P1 only to then cancel it when i found out the whole thing was a con. I've never thought the Jap imports have been great on our roads, the chassis just aren't designed for use over here, and they don't like our fuel either. I guess it's just personal opinion so we'll have to agree to disagree on the handling thing with the Impreza. But i do agree with you on the handling of the S4 - it's not great, but as an overall package the car is wonderful.

I think you'll find that one of the most important factors in the JD Power surveys was reliability and dealer service, followed by economy, performance etc. If you look at the old Top Gear mags, you'll see what i mean. Subaru have won top manufacturer and the Impreza has won best car. I think the legacy has too. Many of the cars in the top ten had nothing to do with performance and were mainstream cars. I totally agree with you on the Honda front. I owned a Prelude Vtec for about 40,000 miles and it was wonderfully built and totally dependable even though i always drove it a ten tenths. My wife has had two new Accords and they too are very well made cars.

[rOcKy]

Hi Guys,

Knew to this site and just about to buy an S4 Avant in Nogaro Blue. Wacko & Golich have hit the nail on the heed. I did have a porsche, but a wife and 2 dogs later I got rid of it. So for me there is no way I would choose anything apart from an M3 as my "spank it while you don't have kids" car. However, BMW lack the market that the S4 Avant has entered, so for me the obvious choice for an outstanding estate is Audi.

However, I am hearing some horror stories about the S4 gearboxes, etc....

[Scotty]

There was an issue with a range of cars gearboxes. It's now resolved but I guess it depends if you have a car within the range. I got mine 6 months old and the gearbox has already been modified and, so far, has been fine.

[JamesB]

I have maybe said this too often but I have had my B6 S4 from new for over 14000 miles and the gearbox is still doing fine.

[RobTheHungryMonkey]

I think the difference in engines (and most of the way both cars are designeed) is down to the particular target buyers for each manufacturer. The Beemer is always going to be aimed at a more driver orientated buyer, with rear wheel drive and a high revving 3.2 straight six, compared to a four wheel drive, higher capacity V8, which I think is a lot more "torque-ier". Better (for the majority) for everyday use, but the beemer for the much more entertaining drive. I am sure Audi could up the power, but I doubt the engine was ever designed to be high revving and have a similiar character to the M3. All my opinion, obviously. Feel free to tell me i'm wrong!

[Krammer002]

I've had my B6 S4 from new, with over 41000 miles and the gear box is also still doing fine.

[rOcKy]

Well as of today I have 3561 carefree miles in my B6 S4 Avant! Great car, awesome car. Perfect for wizzing to the shops to load up on stuff, taking the dogs to the beach, smoothly cruising down the motorways, etc, etc. However, the M3 and the S4 are NOT related whatsoever - there may have been a beer induced moment where the Audi designers thought about competing with the M3, but that went with there next visit to the toilets. The S4 steering feel is great for everyday driving - i.e You don't feel a thing, nothing, nada. The overall impression is you are in a well built, well designed, very comfortable car that is very talented at getting you to wherever you need to go, in all kinds of conditions and getting you there hassle free. After cleaning my M3 today I got that 'devilish' feeling and after telling the wife I was just popping out to remove the rust from my brakes I spazed around the Scottish B roads for 20 minutes with nothing but the sound of the engine screaming in my ears. Came back feeling rather happy with myself. Two very very different cars, but I would not want to part with either of them - however, got my order in for an RS4 so we will have to see...