Considering either an S4 or A6 2.7T, to which I would fit K04s, upgrade intercoolers, injectors, fuel pump, inlet tract - ie do the RS4 type upgrades, as well as dampers/springs, brakes.
I can't find a forum for the A6 2.7T, so can you tell me if there are any obvious engine or gearbox/diff changes compared with the S4? The A6 is noticeably cheaper, of course heavier as well. I don't expect the performance to equal the Subaru which I would be keeping anyway.
Is there any end user software available for remapping the Motronic?
Wouldn't want to go for a standalone ECU, but I would want to map the ECU myself.
-----------------
Impreza, 2.5 turbo, 440 BHP, 400 lbft, 0-60 3.9 (wet), 0-100 8.7, 0-125 12.1
End user mappable Motronic?
Hi John,
I'm looking for an S4 myself and have similar plans.
I have found OBD interface & cables and have some OBD diagnostic software but it doesnt handle the tuning side.
I'm also slightly behind you as you seem to know what you're doing with "remapping". Can you point me in the right direction for info/software on this supposedly "black art"?
Let me know if you need the info on OBD2 connectivity/diagnostics.
Rgds, Clive
I'm looking for an S4 myself and have similar plans.
I have found OBD interface & cables and have some OBD diagnostic software but it doesnt handle the tuning side.
I'm also slightly behind you as you seem to know what you're doing with "remapping". Can you point me in the right direction for info/software on this supposedly "black art"?
Let me know if you need the info on OBD2 connectivity/diagnostics.
Rgds, Clive
-
john_banks
- Neutral
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:56 pm
Hi Clive,
The OBD stuff would be interesting, can you post it in the thread for wider discussion?
Regarding mapping, there is not a huge amount to it once you have the tools.
You need to set at least the following:
rev limit (depending on piston speed, rotating mass and valvetrain, as well as useful power band from cams/ports/turbo)
boost limit (so you don't get a fuel cut from more boost than is programmed into the ECU)
fuel map - usually in a table with RPM on one axis and load on the other, this table contains values to calculate injector opening time. On many ECUs load is a calcuation based on airflow (from the MAF and its calibration table) divided by RPM. A wideband lambda sensor - if the car doesn't have one you can interrogate through the ECU - tells you the mixture you have so you can get enough fuel dumping to prevent detonation on full boost, but not so much you lose too much power. Generally a turbocharged car will run well with 14.7:1 air:fuel ratio on cruise/idle/low load, rising to say 10 to 12:1 air:fuel ratio on full boost, depending on fuel octane, turbo size, boost, compression ratio, cylinder airflow balance and intercooling. Most ECUs will then modify the calculated injector opening time based on such things as battery voltage, atmospheric pressure, coolant temperature, inlet temperature, exhaust gas temperature, and feedback from the narrow or wideband lambda sensors on the vehicle which can influence short term adjustments and allow long term learning.
ignition map - a similar RPM vs load table or tables, the output from this is to charge the coils and fire the spark at a number of degrees before the piston reaches top dead centre just before the power stroke. Typically the spark requires to be fired earlier in low load or high RPM conditions so that the mixture reaches peak cylinder pressure typically abuot 13 degrees after top dead centre. On full load at medium RPM the spark requires to be fired later otherwise the mixture will reach peak cylinder pressure too early and waste torque, or cause detonation which results in very high peak cylinder pressures which can damage engine internals quickly if severe. Most ECUs as for fuel will have a learning strategy for the ignition timing so that they ECU detects detonation through the knock sensor(s) and delays (retards) the timing to prevent it, and possibly adds fuel and reduces boost. On most turbocharged engines on full boost, detonation is the limit rather than wasting torque from firing too early - look up minimum timing for best torque (MBT).
boost map - most ECUs have a target by RPM and load to say what boost is required. A calculated "duty cycle" (look it up) allows a wastegate boost control solenoid to pneumatically switch or vent pressure away from the wastegate diaphragm leading to a change in boost level. The manifold pressure sensor (MAP) checks the level achieved against the target and usually a proportion-integral-differential (PID) or a simpler variation of the same, adjusts the duty cycle to achieve target boost, sometimes with learning so that future boost is more accurate to account for changes in intake air temperature, exhaust gas temperature.
All the maps outlined above end up with guessing at a signal to output to an actuator - injector, ignition coil or boost solenoid, to achieve the desired effect - and in many circumstances read the result from sensors to run the above processes "closed loop".
There are other things to set, but those are the main ones. I usually look at the mechanicals and decide what air:fuel ratio I'm going to run, as well as the boost level. I use conservative ignition timing whilst I set the fuellling and boost up first, then I work on the timing at various boost levels and RPM to get it just detonation free under heavy driving - read thrash the car as hard as you can to get the intercoolers working hard, and then pull back a few degrees safety margin. How much depends on how well the ECU can control detonation.
If you want to fiddle with ECU mapping software, you can find stuff online from MoTeC, GEMS and others, although these two examples are not particularly easy.
I have left some non-commercial (I don't map commercially any more too busy with the main job
) information on ECU mapping and some links to various books on my site http://www.johnbanks.dsl.pipex.com/
Hope this is useful and neither patronising or too technical
John
The OBD stuff would be interesting, can you post it in the thread for wider discussion?
Regarding mapping, there is not a huge amount to it once you have the tools.
You need to set at least the following:
rev limit (depending on piston speed, rotating mass and valvetrain, as well as useful power band from cams/ports/turbo)
boost limit (so you don't get a fuel cut from more boost than is programmed into the ECU)
fuel map - usually in a table with RPM on one axis and load on the other, this table contains values to calculate injector opening time. On many ECUs load is a calcuation based on airflow (from the MAF and its calibration table) divided by RPM. A wideband lambda sensor - if the car doesn't have one you can interrogate through the ECU - tells you the mixture you have so you can get enough fuel dumping to prevent detonation on full boost, but not so much you lose too much power. Generally a turbocharged car will run well with 14.7:1 air:fuel ratio on cruise/idle/low load, rising to say 10 to 12:1 air:fuel ratio on full boost, depending on fuel octane, turbo size, boost, compression ratio, cylinder airflow balance and intercooling. Most ECUs will then modify the calculated injector opening time based on such things as battery voltage, atmospheric pressure, coolant temperature, inlet temperature, exhaust gas temperature, and feedback from the narrow or wideband lambda sensors on the vehicle which can influence short term adjustments and allow long term learning.
ignition map - a similar RPM vs load table or tables, the output from this is to charge the coils and fire the spark at a number of degrees before the piston reaches top dead centre just before the power stroke. Typically the spark requires to be fired earlier in low load or high RPM conditions so that the mixture reaches peak cylinder pressure typically abuot 13 degrees after top dead centre. On full load at medium RPM the spark requires to be fired later otherwise the mixture will reach peak cylinder pressure too early and waste torque, or cause detonation which results in very high peak cylinder pressures which can damage engine internals quickly if severe. Most ECUs as for fuel will have a learning strategy for the ignition timing so that they ECU detects detonation through the knock sensor(s) and delays (retards) the timing to prevent it, and possibly adds fuel and reduces boost. On most turbocharged engines on full boost, detonation is the limit rather than wasting torque from firing too early - look up minimum timing for best torque (MBT).
boost map - most ECUs have a target by RPM and load to say what boost is required. A calculated "duty cycle" (look it up) allows a wastegate boost control solenoid to pneumatically switch or vent pressure away from the wastegate diaphragm leading to a change in boost level. The manifold pressure sensor (MAP) checks the level achieved against the target and usually a proportion-integral-differential (PID) or a simpler variation of the same, adjusts the duty cycle to achieve target boost, sometimes with learning so that future boost is more accurate to account for changes in intake air temperature, exhaust gas temperature.
All the maps outlined above end up with guessing at a signal to output to an actuator - injector, ignition coil or boost solenoid, to achieve the desired effect - and in many circumstances read the result from sensors to run the above processes "closed loop".
There are other things to set, but those are the main ones. I usually look at the mechanicals and decide what air:fuel ratio I'm going to run, as well as the boost level. I use conservative ignition timing whilst I set the fuellling and boost up first, then I work on the timing at various boost levels and RPM to get it just detonation free under heavy driving - read thrash the car as hard as you can to get the intercoolers working hard, and then pull back a few degrees safety margin. How much depends on how well the ECU can control detonation.
If you want to fiddle with ECU mapping software, you can find stuff online from MoTeC, GEMS and others, although these two examples are not particularly easy.
I have left some non-commercial (I don't map commercially any more too busy with the main job
) information on ECU mapping and some links to various books on my site http://www.johnbanks.dsl.pipex.com/Hope this is useful and neither patronising or too technical
John
John
The A6 2.7tt is effectively (as far as I'm aware) a detuned S4 engine. I know that Scott at AmD is running 400ish BHP from his own car. I'm not aware of anyone who has privately mapped a S4/A6 2.7tt ECU but I'm sure it can be done as Revo, APR, AmD, MTM etc etc do exactly that.
I'll be very interested in how you get on if you choose the 2.7TT as your next project after the wonders you did with the Subaru flat-four....
and welcome to rs246.com
The A6 2.7tt is effectively (as far as I'm aware) a detuned S4 engine. I know that Scott at AmD is running 400ish BHP from his own car. I'm not aware of anyone who has privately mapped a S4/A6 2.7tt ECU but I'm sure it can be done as Revo, APR, AmD, MTM etc etc do exactly that.
I'll be very interested in how you get on if you choose the 2.7TT as your next project after the wonders you did with the Subaru flat-four....
and welcome to rs246.com
Hi guys,
About remapping, quite frankly, I don't want to put you guys off, but I wouldn't recommend you to start fiddling with it unless you have £20k available at least, and a spare engine as well...
The motronic ME7.1 system used in the 2.7T engine is very complicated and has nothing to do with early motronic systems or Subaru systems. It doesn't use real boost (apart from diagnostic functions) but only correction factors. The ignition is calculated on basis of 4 main 3D maps, 3 temperature correction maps and so on. boost is also corrected with regards to intake temps and altitude amongst other things. Fuelling is very sophisticated with EGT control where the ECU richens up the mixture by itself, but also leans it out if it "thinks" it's safe to lean the mixture out.
Knock control is dynamic and real-time, all cylinders can be retarded specifically up to 10 or 12 degrees BTDC (I don't know how much actually as I've never pushed the timing so far that the ECU retarded that much).
It is a great system, but not for DIYers, in order to tune them, you need a very accurate map description (unofficial document from Bosch describing all the maps, read big bux), a real-time emulator, a map-editing software and real-time checksums correction(there's 30 checksums blocks in an ME7 ECU, inverted, multipoint, XOR, etc etc), otherwise your tuning "trip" will stop the second you make the first change to any of the maps.
I would recommend you guys to leave this job to people who know something about it, who have the hardware/software and the experience of tuning such ECUs, otherwise it can end up being more expensive than buying an RS4 from the start...
Hope this helps,
Mihnea
About remapping, quite frankly, I don't want to put you guys off, but I wouldn't recommend you to start fiddling with it unless you have £20k available at least, and a spare engine as well...
The motronic ME7.1 system used in the 2.7T engine is very complicated and has nothing to do with early motronic systems or Subaru systems. It doesn't use real boost (apart from diagnostic functions) but only correction factors. The ignition is calculated on basis of 4 main 3D maps, 3 temperature correction maps and so on. boost is also corrected with regards to intake temps and altitude amongst other things. Fuelling is very sophisticated with EGT control where the ECU richens up the mixture by itself, but also leans it out if it "thinks" it's safe to lean the mixture out.
Knock control is dynamic and real-time, all cylinders can be retarded specifically up to 10 or 12 degrees BTDC (I don't know how much actually as I've never pushed the timing so far that the ECU retarded that much).
It is a great system, but not for DIYers, in order to tune them, you need a very accurate map description (unofficial document from Bosch describing all the maps, read big bux), a real-time emulator, a map-editing software and real-time checksums correction(there's 30 checksums blocks in an ME7 ECU, inverted, multipoint, XOR, etc etc), otherwise your tuning "trip" will stop the second you make the first change to any of the maps.
I would recommend you guys to leave this job to people who know something about it, who have the hardware/software and the experience of tuning such ECUs, otherwise it can end up being more expensive than buying an RS4 from the start...
Hope this helps,
Mihnea
Interesting thread. As I was reading John's post and his website, I was thinking "I'm sure the Audi system is more complicated that this" and then Mihnea posted to confirm it. Way above my level of competence but very interesting.
I can throw in a couple of thoughts myself:
1) Based on John's website, I believe that the 2.7bt ECU uses 'open loop' fuel control
2) I can't remember where I read it, but possibly the Audi diagnostic port is NOT fully OBD compliant so tuning via the port may not be as simple as it could be
I can throw in a couple of thoughts myself:
1) Based on John's website, I believe that the 2.7bt ECU uses 'open loop' fuel control
2) I can't remember where I read it, but possibly the Audi diagnostic port is NOT fully OBD compliant so tuning via the port may not be as simple as it could be
2001 Silver S4 Avant
AmD remap, APR R1 DVs, APR bipipe, Full Miltek exhaust
H&R coilovers, AWE DTS, Porsche front brakes, Short-shifter, 18" RS4 replicas
Defi-HUD boost gauge / turbo-timer (with afterrun pump modification), Phatbox
AmD remap, APR R1 DVs, APR bipipe, Full Miltek exhaust
H&R coilovers, AWE DTS, Porsche front brakes, Short-shifter, 18" RS4 replicas
Defi-HUD boost gauge / turbo-timer (with afterrun pump modification), Phatbox
-
john_banks
- Neutral
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:56 pm
Pansies
Doesn't sound much different to the late Subaru ECUs in terms of the number of compensation maps, including intake, EGT, altitude etc. I did simplify my descriptions to the basics of what is commonly adjusted - a lot of compensations simply don't need to be touched. Knock control is not per cylinder on the Subaru yet, but most of the rest of it sounds similar. I've mapped about 80 engines, including one to over 200 BHP per litre which survived and is still running a year later in lesser tune , so I would happily take on another engine, especially something relatively unstressed.
I have no interest (nor the skill or time) to decode the ECU though, shame there aren't the tools for the end user to do it IMHO with all the map descriptions sorted. Stops it really being an enthusiast's project in the same way to me.
I'd be very tempted to just hook up a wideband, charge and EGT probes, det cans, frig the fuel cut and dig my AVC-R out and play with some K04s. We'll see.
It is a bit tricker than getting a new STi, reprogramming the ECU, fitting a bigger turbo, exhaust, fuel pump and injectors and getting 400 BHP relatively easily though. Or is it?
It would be in the interests of established tuners to make it mysterious when it may not be so?
Doesn't sound much different to the late Subaru ECUs in terms of the number of compensation maps, including intake, EGT, altitude etc. I did simplify my descriptions to the basics of what is commonly adjusted - a lot of compensations simply don't need to be touched. Knock control is not per cylinder on the Subaru yet, but most of the rest of it sounds similar. I've mapped about 80 engines, including one to over 200 BHP per litre which survived and is still running a year later in lesser tune
, so I would happily take on another engine, especially something relatively unstressed.I have no interest (nor the skill or time) to decode the ECU though, shame there aren't the tools for the end user to do it IMHO with all the map descriptions sorted. Stops it really being an enthusiast's project in the same way to me.
I'd be very tempted to just hook up a wideband, charge and EGT probes, det cans, frig the fuel cut and dig my AVC-R out and play with some K04s. We'll see.
It is a bit tricker than getting a new STi, reprogramming the ECU, fitting a bigger turbo, exhaust, fuel pump and injectors and getting 400 BHP relatively easily though. Or is it?
It would be in the interests of established tuners to make it mysterious when it may not be so?
-
john_banks
- Neutral
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:56 pm
Because I would do the same in their position
I'm not saying they're ripping anyone off, the VAG tuners seem to be quite well sorted.
But there is nothing like the end user being able to tweak their own ECU IMHO, otherwise you end up with "just" staged packages? Just because it is German doesn't mean it can't be a bit spicier ?
I'm not saying they're ripping anyone off, the VAG tuners seem to be quite well sorted.
But there is nothing like the end user being able to tweak their own ECU IMHO, otherwise you end up with "just" staged packages? Just because it is German doesn't mean it can't be a bit spicier
?I couldn't have said it better.S2tuner wrote:Hi guys,
About remapping, quite frankly, I don't want to put you guys off, but I wouldn't recommend you to start fiddling with it unless you have £20k available at least, and a spare engine as well...
The motronic ME7.1 system used in the 2.7T engine is very complicated and has nothing to do with early motronic systems or Subaru systems. It doesn't use real boost (apart from diagnostic functions) but only correction factors. The ignition is calculated on basis of 4 main 3D maps, 3 temperature correction maps and so on. boost is also corrected with regards to intake temps and altitude amongst other things. Fuelling is very sophisticated with EGT control where the ECU richens up the mixture by itself, but also leans it out if it "thinks" it's safe to lean the mixture out.
Knock control is dynamic and real-time, all cylinders can be retarded specifically up to 10 or 12 degrees BTDC (I don't know how much actually as I've never pushed the timing so far that the ECU retarded that much).
It is a great system, but not for DIYers, in order to tune them, you need a very accurate map description (unofficial document from Bosch describing all the maps, read big bux), a real-time emulator, a map-editing software and real-time checksums correction(there's 30 checksums blocks in an ME7 ECU, inverted, multipoint, XOR, etc etc), otherwise your tuning "trip" will stop the second you make the first change to any of the maps.
I would recommend you guys to leave this job to people who know something about it, who have the hardware/software and the experience of tuning such ECUs, otherwise it can end up being more expensive than buying an RS4 from the start...
Hope this helps,
Mihnea
If you're looking for a home-tunable package (which is very cost effective), get yourself K04's, larger injectors, larger MAF housing, and K03 chip. You can do some basic (fuel, timing, boost, accel/decl pump, etc) tweaking with software such as lemmiwinks and mobile tune.
You won't need an AVC-R and should have no problems getting 450+ hp out of it.
-2001 Audi S4 biturbo (K16/K04 goodness @1.6 bar)
-2005 Golf V TDI PD
-1999 Jeep Cherokee Classic 4x4
www.NogaroBlue.com
-2005 Golf V TDI PD
-1999 Jeep Cherokee Classic 4x4
www.NogaroBlue.com
-
john_banks
- Neutral
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:56 pm
Thanks
Any links to the software you mentioned?
Why the K03 rather than K04 chip? When you mention the K03 chip this has the new MAF and injector calibration in it?
What size are the stock S4 injectors? The RS4? Fuel pressure on both?
Can you get full boost in every gear using the ECU's boost control?
Any links to the software you mentioned?
Why the K03 rather than K04 chip? When you mention the K03 chip this has the new MAF and injector calibration in it?
What size are the stock S4 injectors? The RS4? Fuel pressure on both?
Can you get full boost in every gear using the ECU's boost control?
-
john_banks
- Neutral
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:56 pm
Found Lemmiwinks, looks useful if a bit one dimensional.
Does Motronic run a drive by wire throttle with a torque demand based system? So what happens if you increase the boost outwith ECU control? Does it kill all your effort by throwing fuel in and retarding timing excessively?
What about some more interesting turbos than the K04s? Are there any Garrett flange adaptors available?
Does Motronic run a drive by wire throttle with a torque demand based system? So what happens if you increase the boost outwith ECU control? Does it kill all your effort by throwing fuel in and retarding timing excessively?
What about some more interesting turbos than the K04s? Are there any Garrett flange adaptors available?
It's not really useful as the boost adjustments can only go "down", not "up"...john_banks wrote:Found Lemmiwinks, looks useful if a bit one dimensional.
ME7 means Motronic, E-Gas (drive by wire), hardware generation 7.Does Motronic run a drive by wire throttle with a torque demand based system?
Nope, it does even worse, it shuts the throttle off. This is why I don't think you can tweak it with a fuel cut defender and a boost controller, you'd need a throttle cut defender and many more things, which might end up being more expensive than what you'd initially think.So what happens if you increase the boost outwith ECU control? Does it kill all your effort by throwing fuel in and retarding timing excessively?
I dunno, I've never played with that so I can't answer for now...What about some more interesting turbos than the K04s? Are there any Garrett flange adaptors available?
Mihnea
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests