ESP ?

[ajsl]

Does anyone know when UK spec S4s started coming with ESP?

I was surprised to see that my S4 (mid year 2000 model) has ESP, as from the US boards and spec their models didn't get it until 2001.

Alex

[bienvenum]

my 1999 does not have ESP, which is fine by me as it's only for pooftas ! [img]images/graemlins/roflmao.gif[/img]

I am sure I will get [img]images/graemlins/FIREdevil.gif[/img][img]images/graemlins/rocketwhore.gif[/img] for that

[runrowsam]

Not by me mate! ESP's for girlies! What's the point in having all that power if you don't have to use your brains to play with it?!

Rock on
Sam [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]

[DavidR]

Not by me mate! ESP's for girlies! What's the point in having all that power if you don't have to use your brains to play with it?!

Rock on
Sam [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]

Whats the point of crashing when you have an electronic system that gives you a fighting chance of avoiding the accident?

[bienvenum]

I prefer to drive within MY limits and not of what some german guy has decided are the limits of the car AND me....

I think anyone doing a serious stint on a track would turn it off ? I would anyway.....

So it doesn't bother me that my car does not have it.

Anyway makes me chuckle, as my mate has a VR6 Bora, and was gloating over the fact he had ESP, I pointed the above out to him...... anyway my words must have been playing on his mind, as he came back one evening looking rather sheepish, having just turned his ESP off in a gravel car park, so he could find the limits, anyway he lost it into a horizontal wooden barrier, which went through his front valance, into the engine bay, taking the bottom of the engine, off. 10k repair bill (luckily for him picked up by insurance) and six months later he got his car back !!!!

Oh how we laugh about how his car has ESP !!! [img]images/graemlins/jump3.gif[/img]

Next year he will have ESP again - Extremely Steep Premium !!! LOL [img]images/graemlins/roflmao.gif[/img]

Thought you mught like that one

Mike

[DavidR]

I prefer to drive within MY limits and not of what some german guy has decided are the limits of the car AND me....

I think anyone doing a serious stint on a track would turn it off ? I would anyway.....

What happens when you exceed your limits exploring your new motor? By definition you are going to hope the run off area is free of other cars, pedestrians, trees or some such version of immovable roadside furniture.

My point does not relate to the fact your car does not have ESP, more the mentality of switching out a safety system for little real world gain.

The ESP on the S4 is a fairly subtle tool and tends to interevene when the physical limits of lateral grip / traction have been overcome, and not at an arbitrary point programmed by some engineer somewhere within the limits of traction and grip. Mine certainly is perhaps a little sensitive when there is a transient wheel slip under acceleration, but certainly gives me a handful of understeer to play with and about 5 degrees of oversteer before it cuts in. Granted, if you blast about full throtte chucking the car about like a hooligan then it will intervene more of the time, but mostly we are sharing roads with "people with big ears driving rover 200s".

I could live with my S4 if it didn't have ESP, but I cannot see why you would (as several claim to do) switch it off for every journey. If you drive quickly, but smoothly paying attention to road conditions, weight transfer and power delivery, ESP hardly ever comes on, and I do dry track days with it switched on, not off.

In an emergency situation such as a wet high speed lane change, blow out or unexpected oversteer, the ESP is much more clever than me. I don't know about you guys, but I cannot brake the inside front wheel independently of the other four, whilst transferring torque to the oposite side of the axle??

There are always the "captain invicibles" of this world that beleive that ESP can overcome any chosen traction to vector combination, and such people will crash with esp on or off. I still drive assured that if (and sometimes when) I overcome MY limits, the car has some technology to help me out.

David (perhaps getting too old and sensible [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[runrowsam]

I thought the pigeons'd get pissed at the cat being cast among them!!! Sorry, I didn't mean to offend, but my thoughts on ESP are well documented. Bearing in mind my very limited experience of it (only really on an RS4), I know I can't comment too much about it. But I really did hate the damn thing, as I'm one of those people who don't like the unpredictability of it. If the car's pointing in directions I (and my wallet) would rather it didn't, then I prefer to correct it myself, rather than have some machine do it for me, while I panic and try and correct. I do accept of course that it's clever and it CAN do all these wonderful things with torque and braking, but I am human, and if the car starts sliding one way, then begins to scuffle round a bit (as it does with ESP), then I soil myself, get that stupid look on my face that most people can sympathise with, and turn rather unpredictable myself! Without ESP you know what you get, with it, you're never really sure quite what the car thinks is going on. That's my issue. Always a good argument this one though!

Rock on
Sam [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]

[TarmacTerrorist]

Everyone who has owned an Audi/VAG with ESP fitted has at some point or another been in a position where it has cut in on them.

When it does do you think to yourself -

a. Whats going on? Come on you P.O.S, I want to go faster!!!!!

or

b. Phew..... thank god for that, I would have stuffed it had it not been for ESP.

??????????

99.9% of the time it will be the first answer.

Have you experienced the 0.1% to be able to give a unbias view?

[fade2grey]

I had Ross' new RS$ out yesterday.. it has ESP & after about 454mins of SERIOUS stick, I had the ESP kick in only once - I was thinking of turning it off when I first got in but it was a bit academic as I never really reached the limit of that things traction. The only time it came in during that drive was out of a very tight left hander with bumps on the inside. Very unobtrusive & controlled, I have to say, as a hater of such things I was impressed.

Oh yeah & it's sooo much quicker than the S4. [img]images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

A

[viffer]

a. Whats going on? Come on you P.O.S, I want to go faster!!!!!
or
b. Phew..... thank god for that, I would have stuffed it had it not been for ESP.

99.9% of the time it will be the first answer.

I completely agree, and speaking as someone who has experienced case b twice (once my fault entirely, the other time partly my fault) and emerged unscathed, I think ESP is a fantastic safety aid on public roads.

I like driving fairly quickly, but I also like my no claims bonus, don't like pain, and would find it hard to live with myself if I hurt (or worse) someone else in an accident. And I know I'm no Michael Schumacher when it comes to car control. So ESP stays on for me.

Let's be careful out there...

Cheers, viffer.

[runrowsam]

I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I've driven a few cars like TVR's and the Nobles, which have no aids at all, and I personally feel safer because if the bugger steps out then you just counteract it and all's peachy. I've never been keen on a computer doing that for me, as I naturally respond to oversteer etc. I got VERY used to it in my mini of all things! Lightweight, skinny tyres, RIGID suspension, all made it rather an interesting thing to drive! I suppose it depends on whether you're one of those people who see sideways incidents and the like as one of those things that happen, or as a major emergency, as your reactions depend on how you percieve the situation. Most people panic (understandably!), and so ESP'll save your bacon. I'm one of life's odd people who don't panic at such things (rather worrying at times), until afterwards, so my reactions tend to save the day themselves, and having ESP interfering would just make me wonder what the hell's going on!!! I just HATE it when it forces understeer, as I said before, it's dangerous if you ask me.

Rock on
Sam [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]

[DavidR]

Foolish sentiments Sam. Even the best drivers make mistakes or face the unexpected. Thats why the F1 boys and Rally drivers spend time in the gravel. On roads we do not have the luxury of gravel traps and whilst I know I can catch most slides (especially so on tracks), there simply is not the margin for error on a narrow british road. I particulary like the example of a tyre blowout. There is a video of a "trained" traffic policeman whos car blew a rear tyre at about 70mph. Almost instantaneously his car spun out of control. Admittedly, using F1 as an example is a little extreme, but we can watch their cars spin off when a smilar thing happens. It would be fluke and good fortune rather than skill, reaction and the ability to stay calm that would save you from such a situation. Incidentally staying "calm" is not always the best response, the adrenaline surge of fear/panic/distress decreases reaction times and heightens awareness thereby increaseing performance in difficult situations.

The noble and TVRs (the latter of which I regard as very unrewarding cars to drive quickly) at least have the benefit of useful control feedback and a suitably taught suspension setup to allow the driver the information to correct slides.

I maintain my view that whilst ESP is an occasional handicap, its benefits far outweigh the negatives when you are faced with a dangerous situation that may or may not be due to a driver error. In an emergency situation for even the most aware, skilled and experienced driver, things can happen too quickly for the provision of a measured, appropriate response.

[viffer]

I guess it's a matter of personal preference

Indeed fair enough. But I have heard (possibly just urban myths) that the insurers are even more reluctant than usual to pay up if you have an accident in an ESP equipped car with the ESP turned off. Does anyone know anything about this?

Cheers, viffer.

[DavidR]

Viffer, there have been runours on the American Lexus and Beemer boards regarding the insurers not paying out if ESP or whatever is disarmed in the event of a crash. I don't know but would not be surprised to hear that the ECU can be interrogated to tell whether ESP was on or off at the time of a crash, but I daresay that if they can make a case of it in the US then they will and we'll follow suit timeously.

[wazza]

I'm siding with David on this one. [img]images/graemlins/nodder.gif[/img]

Bearing in mind my very limited experience of it (only really on an RS4), I know I can't comment too much about it. But I really did hate the damn thing, as I'm one of those people who don't like the unpredictability of it.

Sam - you don't like the unpredictability of it, because you are not used to it.
If you use the car regularly, you get to know what you can and can't do and at what speeds you can do it.
I find it is extremely predictable.

I can also see where Gavin is coming from, but the computer cannot tell that you have a wide stretch of road following a bend or where the surface is not particularly even, so it is a safety net for driving on most normal British roads.