M5 Estate

[SteveH]

@ Bigmo & Bob... LOL!!!!!

[SteveH]

Check out the residuals of the used M5's advertised, 1/3 value already gone in 18months... Cars like the M5 and RS6 are never bought as sensible £'s justification, but thats a lot of cash so quickly. Good news for used buyers, 6months / end of summer and your possibly looking at a few available for the £40k mark (nearly 50% off!) which I suppose is pretty much akin to RS6 trends.

[alex_123_fra]

thats fine... Audi can "see their hand" then, bet the next RS6 will boast 550bhp plus maybe nearer 600? V10 twin turbo as seen on the Nuvolari concept which had 610 bhp.

BMW have made this because Audi rules the roost here and with their M3 getting stuffed by the new RS4 they have a bloody nose and want a punch back, fine 500 bhp will be fun in the wet and snow wheras the quattro will carry on as normal. Same with Merc's AMG models which are heavily electronically reined in because the gearbox cant take full whack so its tethered.

A big Audi fan are you??

Where exactly is the M3 getting stuffed by the RS4?? Round any track you pretty much care to mention the M3 wins & is still seen as the benchmark in that class (& that's with 65BHP less). Sure the RS4 has some advantage in the traction dept. & between the 2 i'd rather have the B7 RS4, but the new M3 due mid 2007 will no doubt raise the bar again & very much spank the RS4 with similar power, but far better chassis, poise & dynamics.

Audi without doubt own the ubber wagon space & have done for many years, so i don't see BMW feeling threatened as the M5 Touring is no doubt just to satisfy the BMW lovers & not being launched to really try & steal from the Audi, however with NO new RS6 being announced (only rumours) & the new M5 Touring coming in March, BMW will get the jump for those buyers who require more pace & space than the current B7 RS4 provides.

The new RS6 if/when it's launched will need a minimum of 550BHP to scare M5 owners (fact), but given it will no doubt have Tiptronic Auto as Audi have not yet designed a Manual or Sequential Manual that can handle over 450BHP (unless they're hiding one somewhere), so will again appeal to a different type of driver.

My previous car was a 550+BHP RS6 Saloon & i loved it, but they're very different cars to drive/own & i now enjoy the fact i'm NOT driving a Quattro & am driving a Sequential Manual. I'm 1st on the pre-list for the new RS6 assuming it makes production, as it COULD be a fantastic piece of kit, assuming Audi have learnt a few lessons from their competition.

Finally, i'd be very surprised if Audi launch an RS6 with 600BHP, you can be sure whatever they launch it will NOT be quicker or more powerful than the Gallardo. My guess is 530BHP & the same level of torque (assuming they use forced induction). Just a tad higher than the M5 & AMG equivalents. Of course if they do opt for Turbos then tuning options should see the high 500's within easy grasp, as long as whatever gearbox they use can handle it.

Not sure which track you are referring to, but the E46 M3 laps the Nurburgring at around 8.22 as opposed to the 7.58 posted by the RS4:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showth ... p?t=180575

The M3 CSL has posted a 7.50 but I don't think it would be fair to compare the track day/stripped out special with a standard RS4. The bottom line in pretty much every road test is that the B7 RS4 is a superior car to the E46 M3 and that is not simply due to the power advantage.

True the new V8 M3 will raise the bar again but I think the B7 RS4 will closely match it. Some people just prefer 4WD and as you say the 2 cars appeal to different kinds of drivers. The ones that say "4WD is too easy" or "not involving enough" have obviously never taken a 4WD car anywhere near its limits.

Regarding the new RS6...I see no good argument as to why it shouldn't be 550 bhp+. The Gallardo is completely irrelevant. I would guess no gallardo driver would give a stuff if the audi uber avant is more powerful than a gallardo as the power to weight ratio would obviously be inferior in the new RS6. If Audi need to have the edge over the M5 estate, they will give it enough power to do just that.

I agree that the 2 cars appeal to different kinds of drivers. If you want to have a bit of fun in the crap british weather without too much fear of dying, I'd always go for a 4WD car.

[Wacko]

The bottom line in pretty much every road test is that the B7 RS4 is a superior car to the E46 M3

Hmmmm, sounds like quite a limited selection of road tests.

Most road tests say the E46 although it is years older than the Audi is a better drivers' car. The Audi is a better day-to-day car but dynamically inferior...

Same old story... how many Audis do you see on a track?.... none. How many Ms do you see on a track? Loads. They cater to different requirements

[alex_123_fra]

The bottom line in pretty much every road test is that the B7 RS4 is a superior car to the E46 M3

Hmmmm, sounds like quite a limited selection of road tests.

Most road tests say the E46 although it is years older than the Audi is a better drivers' car. The Audi is a better day-to-day car but dynamically inferior...

Same old story... how many Audis do you see on a track?.... none. How many Ms do you see on a track? Loads. They cater to different requirements

The E46 M3 is no driver's car. It tries to be but fails, hence why the CSL was produced to exploit the true potential of its chassis. Dynamically, the RS4 is leagues ahead of the standard M3. Why does everyone automatically assume that simply because you have a 4WD setup, it can't be a good driver's car. Oversteer and drifting do not define what a driver's car is all about.

Just because you've seen no Audis on a track doesn't mean they are not good track cars. They are actually not that uncommon. I've hardly ever seen a standard E46 M3 on a track. Sure...lots of CSLs, but as already discussed, we're not comparing the CSL with the RS4. That wouldn't be a fair comparison.

Having owned an E46 M3, I can (hand on heart) say it was a rolly, heavy pile of lard that was mostly suited to cruise. Sure, you could have a bit of fun and tail-happy action if you pushed it, but you wouldn't go very fast. If that is your definition of a driver's car, then I feel for you as you definitely haven't experienced one. The RS4 lets you exploit its chassis much more on the road and track with the 4WD setup.

If you're thinking of the CSL, it is a completely different car to the standard E46 M3. Much more focused with better steering/gearbox and stiffer suspension with a lot less roll....an obvious track setup. If audi wanted to produce a similar track-special version of the RS4, they would...easily. Lets not pretent that the standard E46 M3 is actually very good on a track...it isn't!!

[BigMo]

Aren't we detracting here somewhat - NICE NOBLE!!!!