M5 Estate

[B9Boy]

Thought Id stick my 2 pennies worth in as an ex-BMW man and an now Audi man:

I agree that BMW's offer much more dynamic drives. My previous M5 was a much more exciting machine to drive handling wise than my somewhat leaden RS6. Having said that the exclusivity that an RS Audi gives (plus the fact that people suddenly want to talk to you about the car instead of ignoring you!!) makes up for some of that.

The reason I swapped brands though is that I didnt like the new generation BMW's that were styled by Chris Bangle at the time. Im still not keen on them but whilst the exteriors are starting to look OK these days the interiors still remain absolutely AWFUL!!!!!!
Having said that I am about to swap my '54 plate A4 1.8T for a new shape BMW 525d so this will be an interesting exercise to see if I still think that after a few months ownership. The big surprise though is that I recently had a new shape A6 courtsey car and the interior of that was garbage!!! Audi used to make simply the best interiors in the world bar none but now they are falling into BMW's trap - STOP IT NOW BEFORE IT GETS ANY WORSE!!

I think that if the RS6 happens then the BMW will still be the more dynamic drive and to counter-act that Audi will simply ensure that the RS6 ouguns the BMW in the horsepower stakes to make up for it. The Audi will be a gorgeous thing to own and look at but the BMW will drive better. Nothing new there then?!?

[ZeroK66]

Customer service lets BMW down every time.

Quite the opposite. I've nothing but praise for both the Dealers i've used & BMW UK Customer Service. Runs rings (cute pun ) round the service i used to receive from Audi Customer Service & also from the dealers

Have to agree with W8PMC... Reviews I have read rate BMW top 3 and Audi bottom 3?? Unless things have changed in the last 3 months? I certainly wont spend another cent with Audi... unfortunately. In 3-5 years time I will be in a possition to be spending big bucks on an RS6 style uber wagon to cart a family around in.... unfortunately Audi have lost me and my family as a customer for utterly disasterous customer service and complete lack of interest.

Ring ring... hello BMW...

PS: Not a fan of the M5 anyway. That said though all their cars have a way of growing on you. Perhaps in the flesh it would look better? I dont mind the look of the saloon in the flesh... pics I thought OMG a disaster.

Why dont beemer hurry up and work on 4wd chassis!

[B9Boy]

Its a shame there seems to be so many poor dealers out there.

I used BMW dealers for each BMW weve owned (6 of the things) and found the dealers to be courteous, pleasant, professional etc etc. The only downside being the prices of course!

I now use the Audi dealers for our 2 Audis and once again am receiving the same level of great service from them.
It must differ from dealer to dealer though Im sure. Ive yet to ever enter a VW showroom for instance and not have the salesperson look at me as if hed trodden in something- and theyre onlt posh Seats!!

[W8PMC]

Thought Id stick my 2 pennies worth in as an ex-BMW man and an now Audi man:

I agree that BMW's offer much more dynamic drives. My previous M5 was a much more exciting machine to drive handling wise than my somewhat leaden RS6. Having said that the exclusivity that an RS Audi gives (plus the fact that people suddenly want to talk to you about the car instead of ignoring you!!) makes up for some of that.

The reason I swapped brands though is that I didnt like the new generation BMW's that were styled by Chris Bangle at the time. Im still not keen on them but whilst the exteriors are starting to look OK these days the interiors still remain absolutely AWFUL!!!!!!
Having said that I am about to swap my '54 plate A4 1.8T for a new shape BMW 525d so this will be an interesting exercise to see if I still think that after a few months ownership. The big surprise though is that I recently had a new shape A6 courtsey car and the interior of that was garbage!!! Audi used to make simply the best interiors in the world bar none but now they are falling into BMW's trap - STOP IT NOW BEFORE IT GETS ANY WORSE!!

I think that if the RS6 happens then the BMW will still be the more dynamic drive and to counter-act that Audi will simply ensure that the RS6 ouguns the BMW in the horsepower stakes to make up for it. The Audi will be a gorgeous thing to own and look at but the BMW will drive better. Nothing new there then?!?

Well balanced response & i agree 100%. I got VERY used to driving my RS6 fast, as to be true it took little effort from me the driver. To do the same in the M5 & certainly around a track, the difference in levels of involvment is night & day.

Love the RS6 with a passion & the new one (assuming it arrives) will be awesome, but the fun factor of M is very hard to ignore. See that 5th Gear episode where they pitched the B7 RS4 against an M3 CS (not CSL) & the RS4 won most of the battles (by a narrow margin), however round the full track the M3 was making good ground after the RS4's initial blast off & all agreed that the M3 was more fun & exciting (straight line speed is not everything). Also that was with a 65BHP deficit.

It's all about taste & while i loved my RS6 & love my current M5, they are very different & right now i'm enjoying the grin factor of the M5 more than i did the RS6, however when the road conditions are not so good, i could make better progress in the RS6 or on a wet track.

[B9Boy]

Ive just put 2 and 2 together and realised you were the guy at the recent Donington trackday in the M5....I was in the red RS6.

[Wacko]

Customer service lets BMW down every time.

Eh? I've switched from an RS6 to a n E60 M5 and the service level and product knowledge of the BMW service staff is sooo much better, not to mention sales staff.

[W8PMC]

Ive just put 2 and 2 together and realised you were the guy at the recent Donington trackday in the M5....I was in the red RS6.

That's me & was good to meet you.

Was one trackday where any RS6 defo had an advantage over the M5. So wet, windy & slippy, any heroics by me would have resulted in carnage. Was fine keeping up, but no chance making progress. When following you in your RS6, it was evident of your advantage coming off the tighter bends, you were so able to get that power down sooner than i could.

[Jeeves]

I like it, and I see the understatement as a bonus. Time for a test drive I think....

[Norrs2]

Whilst this debate about BMW v Audi rages on, I would like to throw in my 2p worth.

Basic dynamics of a rear wheel drive set up from a drivers perspective, means that, yes, you will have more feel through the steering wheel and yes the car is likely to be lighter etc etc. So if your prone to going on track days and want to slide about with the tail out, then just about ANY RWD set up is going to be "entertaining".

Me? I live in the real world. Constant rain (I live in Scotland) lots of twisty bits and some real nutters on the roads. For that, give me 4WD anytime. Pulling out of junctions quickly, a bit of fun even when it's wet and the security that I will just about never be stranded in the snow. 2WD does not provide that for me and I will never go back. Combine the 4WD with the the power of the S/RS Audi models and the build quality, and as an all round package (for me) the Audi can't be beaten

One other thing, I constantly get very *issed off with the majority of road testers TV/Mags who constantly bleat on and on about "hanging the rear out on bends" blah blah.

1.If they drive like that on public roads going round bends, then I don't particularly want to meet them coming the other way!

2. They are quite happy to treat a £50k+ car that way on public roads because if they prang it, they haven't paid for it.

3. How many actually take their car to a track and can/do this kind of driving. (ok I know there are a lot of people on here maybe have the inclination/access but most of us don't)


Conclusion?:-

If you get more fun driving around "normal" roads with your tail hanging out, then yes by all means get a RWD.

If you want a safer car with lots of power and unmatchable build quality (In my humble opinion - BMW can't match Audi quality materials or general build) then for me the Audi will always win hands down in most categories.

Rant over!

[BigMo]

My 3 pence worth - These cars are growing on me. I see a lot of black ones round here and even with the M kit on a non M car they look very good. My only reservation is that of the image of a BMW driver as portrayed by the motoring public. To my summation BMW drivers are seen as ones not to let out at junctions and to cut up on the highways. Please feel free to slate me if this is not the case. I've nothing against these cars. I have previously owned a 330 convertible back in my hairstylist days whilst training to be a gynaecologist.

[bobjebb]

back in my hairstylist days whilst training to be a gynaecologist.

Did you pass? It's always been an avenue I've wanted to look into, there's a gap in the market I feel. Just unsure sometimes, I've heard it can be a hairy business.











Etc Etc....

[W8PMC]

Whilst this debate about BMW v Audi rages on, I would like to throw in my 2p worth.

Basic dynamics of a rear wheel drive set up from a drivers perspective, means that, yes, you will have more feel through the steering wheel and yes the car is likely to be lighter etc etc. So if your prone to going on track days and want to slide about with the tail out, then just about ANY RWD set up is going to be "entertaining".

Me? I live in the real world. Constant rain (I live in Scotland) lots of twisty bits and some real nutters on the roads. For that, give me 4WD anytime. Pulling out of junctions quickly, a bit of fun even when it's wet and the security that I will just about never be stranded in the snow. 2WD does not provide that for me and I will never go back. Combine the 4WD with the the power of the S/RS Audi models and the build quality, and as an all round package (for me) the Audi can't be beaten

One other thing, I constantly get very *issed off with the majority of road testers TV/Mags who constantly bleat on and on about "hanging the rear out on bends" blah blah.

1.If they drive like that on public roads going round bends, then I don't particularly want to meet them coming the other way!

2. They are quite happy to treat a £50k+ car that way on public roads because if they prang it, they haven't paid for it.

3. How many actually take their car to a track and can/do this kind of driving. (ok I know there are a lot of people on here maybe have the inclination/access but most of us don't)


Conclusion?:-

If you get more fun driving around "normal" roads with your tail hanging out, then yes by all means get a RWD.

If you want a safer car with lots of power and unmatchable build quality (In my humble opinion - BMW can't match Audi quality materials or general build) then for me the Audi will always win hands down in most categories.

Rant over!

I agree to a point, as that is how the motoring press portray powerful RWD cars, however the key point not made is the general driving dynamics, which i'm sorry does always swing in BMW's favour.

For general day to day driving in the fairly poor UK road/weather conditions, Quattro or any all wheel drive does make perfect sense, however for chassis, weight & handling dynamics the BMW wins & this is felt when driving on normal roads & of course on track. I DON'T hang the rear of my M5 out, as i'm fearful of trashing the car, however when thigs do get a little out of shape, it's predictable & fairly safe. Audi have always been slated for sticking their engines forward of the front axle with the exception of the B7 RS4 which shows some improvement. Also the general balance of weight on Quattro Audi's is far from the Nirvana of 50/50 which does alter the handling dynamics in a big way.

For point & squirt, the RS6 is almost unchallenged & in bad road conditions, the Quattro does of course have the edge, but for the time being i'm enjoying what i feel is a more genuine overall driving experience & the grin factor is much bigger than i felt in the RS6.

I love both cars & for point to point their is little between them, but when driven in anger, on a dry track & for that fun factor, the M5 is the better car for my needs/desires.

I like most am holding my breath for the new RS6, as assuming Audi carry forward with the better positioning of the engine as per the B7 RS4 & they carry forward the 60/40 power (60 to the rear) then the new RS6 should be mucho fun & perhaps the perfect balance between fun, safety & everyday usability.

[Norrs2]

In terms of overall handling dynamics, I accept that in most instances the BMW will have it over the Audi for the really enthusiastic driver (ur-quattro/B7 RS4 I'm not so conviced). But I think that is also a generic characterisitic of the RWD platform and is not necessarily an atribute soley owned by BMW, albeit, they do do it very well.

In summary, I'm not trying to have a go at BMW (I've had 4 myself in the distant past) they are extremely well engineered cars, but right now, I have a bit of a problem with their image, I really don't like the Chris Bangle designs, i don't like the way RWD cars deal with traction problems by "cutting the power" and I prefer the all round abilities of the Audi, however, as you say, everyone to their own preferences.

[BigMo]

back in my hairstylist days whilst training to be a gynaecologist.

Did you pass? It's always been an avenue I've wanted to look into, there's a gap in the market I feel. Just unsure sometimes, I've heard it can be a hairy business.










Etc Etc....

I did indeed. Now as head consultant, I can take it easy full in the knowledge that the RS6 can keep me on the slippery bits and confidence that when I want to shove it that little bit harder the car'll climax with a huge dose of Stage 2+ torque. I can tell you, I've shaved a few bushes in my time, but in the RS6 you can really get stuck in.

[W8PMC]

In terms of overall handling dynamics, I accept that in most instances the BMW will have it over the Audi for the really enthusiastic driver (ur-quattro/B7 RS4 I'm not so conviced). But I think that is also a generic characterisitic of the RWD platform and is not necessarily an atribute soley owned by BMW, albeit, they do do it very well.

In summary, I'm not trying to have a go at BMW (I've had 4 myself in the distant past) they are extremely well engineered cars, but right now, I have a bit of a problem with their image, I really don't like the Chris Bangle designs, i don't like the way RWD cars deal with traction problems by "cutting the power" and I prefer the all round abilities of the Audi, however, as you say, everyone to their own preferences.

Very true, but were BMW have always reigned fairly supreme is also in their 50/50 weight distribution & chassis dynamics (i'm sure other RWD Marques equal BMW) & this combined with RWD is what gives you that feeling of real car control & thrilling driving.

As for cutting power, when BMW 1st introduced their ESP variants, they were very nanny like however no more so than Audi, but in the newer models, you have the ability to fully switch off DSC & i mean fully off. For instance, in an M5 you can't select SMG6 (most aggresive setting) unless DSC is FULLY off & likewise you can't perform a full Launch Control until DSC is FULLY off. I'm not saying having it off is a good idea in all but the best driving conditions, but Audi are still behind in this. Also worth pointing out that even when fully on, the DSC is manageable in a way i never found with the RS6, as it's traction that's controlled & not power cut (which i found very un-nerving in the RS6 when driving in anger).

That said & i said it before, in day to day driving it really is down to personal taste & progress advantages are so marginal it's almost non existent.