I don't have the electrical diagrams to hand and won't be able to check for a few days.
You could wire a switch directly to the starter solenoid to bypass any of the car electrics. This way when it does it again, you can send 12V directly to the starter solenoid and see if the problem persists. If it does, it's definitely the starter motor.
Starter Motor failure
Re: Starter Motor failure
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: Starter Motor failure
Quick question. Currently the car starts every time I try it, but it is cold. It will however only start in Park. Is the car meant to be able to start in Neutral if the foot brake is pressed? I'm sure it says this in the car manual but I don't have it here.
2003 RS6 MTM 568
Re: Starter Motor failure
Thanks anyway! Also, I did consider the 12V directly to the solenoid, but I think to even get to the wiring it will be a similar amount of work as removing the starter, it is well and truly buried. I ca't see where any of the wiring goes to the starter either to possibly tap in further upstream... I think at this point I'm just going to remove the starter and then check everything that is accessible there.Shoppinit wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:26 pmI don't have the electrical diagrams to hand and won't be able to check for a few days.
You could wire a switch directly to the starter solenoid to bypass any of the car electrics. This way when it does it again, you can send 12V directly to the starter solenoid and see if the problem persists. If it does, it's definitely the starter motor.
2003 RS6 MTM 568
Re: Starter Motor failure
The car has to be in Park for the engine to start IIRC, nothing else. You can only move it from park by pressing the brake pedal. The car uses a position sensor in the selector mechanism to know where the lever is. You can check what it thinks the position is with the Vagcom.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: Starter Motor failure
Cheers. Yep, that's exactly how it functions. I've got the Vagcom on the car so am going to check as much out as I can, but as mentioned there are currently no defects to find as it starts every time now.... Very frustrating. I don't want to risk going for another drive as the last thing I need is to break down somewhere!!!!Shoppinit wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:37 pmThe car has to be in Park for the engine to start IIRC, nothing else. You can only move it from park by pressing the brake pedal. The car uses a position sensor in the selector mechanism to know where the lever is. You can check what it thinks the position is with the Vagcom.
2003 RS6 MTM 568
Re: Starter Motor failure
Well, spent some time doing other jobs on the car today while I thought about how to progress with my starter issue - changed a front parking sensor, swapped out a headlight bulb then I thought I might as well give a go at getting the starter out. It took 2 hours to get to a position where the starter was ready to be removed - belly pan off, front struts unbolted at the top, oil drained, filter removed, oil drain pipe from right side turbo removed, oil pipes from oil filter housing removed, right side boost pipe and hoses removed, airbox removed, exhaust dropped from rubbers and supported by transmission jack, prop shaft heat shields removed and propshaft unbolted at central bearing, and finally engine supported from below on another transmission jack, rear subframe bolts removed, front subframe bolts loosened, and engine dropped around 4 inches. Sadly, even after doing that I was unable to get a socket on to the upper starter motor bolt, indeed it took around 20 minutes until I even located the bolt as it lives at the transmission side of the gearbox bellhousing in a hidden spot behind the right side turbo... After cleaning the area up with some brake cleaner it became visible, but in my brief attempt to get a 16mm socket on to the bolt I failed. It certainly appears that the gap between the oil input hose and part of the bellhousing prevents a 16mm socket fitting through. Also, you need to use at least a 2ft long socket extension bar and a UJ on the end would most likely be required.... Anyway, I stopped for dinner and decided to think about it some more. So, this evening I found wiring diagrams for the relays on the RS6. According to the site I found: http://knigaproavto.ru/shemy/en/audi/a6 ... -2005.html
This says that in the "13-point relay carrier, behind driver's storage compartment" Relay 4 is Starter inhibitor relay - J207 and Starter inhibitor and reversing light relay - J226. Some more searching tells me that Relay J207 is marked 53, so I think I might have a look at that tomorrow and do some testing there as I am absolutely not 100% sure what the problem is with the car and know that changing the starter might be futile anyway. I would have looked at relays first if I had a wiring diagram, so hopefully the info I have now is accurate and I will give it a check and report back!
This says that in the "13-point relay carrier, behind driver's storage compartment" Relay 4 is Starter inhibitor relay - J207 and Starter inhibitor and reversing light relay - J226. Some more searching tells me that Relay J207 is marked 53, so I think I might have a look at that tomorrow and do some testing there as I am absolutely not 100% sure what the problem is with the car and know that changing the starter might be futile anyway. I would have looked at relays first if I had a wiring diagram, so hopefully the info I have now is accurate and I will give it a check and report back!
Last edited by skyegtb on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2003 RS6 MTM 568
Re: Starter Motor failure
Starter inhibitor relay feels like a good place to start.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: Starter Motor failure
OK, thought I would give an update to this. When I went back to my workshop I decided to just fit the sub frame back on and focus my attention on the wiring / relays. While the sub frame was still dropped I traced the 12V trigger wire at the starter back to the cabin and found (quite conveniently) that the wire (thickish possibly 6mm2 red / black stripe) is easily accessible from the top of the engine bay, just behind the air box at a connector! The cable runs up from the starter in a sleeve with the main 12V feed to the starter. This is handy info as it makes testing the starter by applying 12V to that cable a breeze. I tested the starter a few times by applying 12V directly from the battery here and as expected the engine turned over nicely.
So, with the engine back in place and all components refitted (approx 1.5 hours work) I turned my attention to the starter relay below the steering wheel and the associated wiring etc. First thing to do was remove the relay (53 on top row as seen in the pic below) and swap it for the other 53 relay at the bottom of the panel. I had a few spare 53 relays on my shelf, but thought I would just swap these over for an initial test. I also checked the wiring at the relay and can confirm that pin 87 at the socket leads directly to the 12V trigger input at the starter – very handy info too, as I temporarily set up a switch (starter button) here to allow activation of the starter directly, in the event the problem was not the relay.
Next, I took the car for a 30 minute drive, it started perfectly from cold as before but when I turned the engine off after the drive it was back to the no-start situation. This allowed me to test if the issue was indeed the starter, but using my switch the car started perfectly, but not with the key turn, probably proving that the issue is not the relay, but more likely the actual ignition switch, wiring from the ignition switch or possibly the switch in the gear selector or associated wiring.
For the moment I will live with the remote starter button I fitted but when I get more time later on I will check out the rest of the wiring. The trouble with this problem being intermittent is that I need to drive the car, get it warm, stop it, hope it won’t start, and then I have a small window of time to check for a bad circuit or dodgy switch before things cool down again. Irritating!
Here are some pictures for reference.
This shows the access to the starter with all pipes and hoses removed from below it.
Exhaust rubbers dropped, supported on jack with safety rope!
Propshaft unbolted and heat shields removed.
Heatshield removed from above right side driveshaft to try to get more access – didn’t help.
With the subframe dropped you can see the rear facing starter bolt (can you?)
Rear facing bolt circled here! I guess that it should be removable, but it would be very tricky and most likely would need the downpipe removed to give the required access.
Relay box
Wiring loom from starter to cabin inside the black sleeve here
Red / black wire here is direct to the starter trigger, the easiest place to directly jump 12V to the battery to check its function in the event of a no-start
So, with the engine back in place and all components refitted (approx 1.5 hours work) I turned my attention to the starter relay below the steering wheel and the associated wiring etc. First thing to do was remove the relay (53 on top row as seen in the pic below) and swap it for the other 53 relay at the bottom of the panel. I had a few spare 53 relays on my shelf, but thought I would just swap these over for an initial test. I also checked the wiring at the relay and can confirm that pin 87 at the socket leads directly to the 12V trigger input at the starter – very handy info too, as I temporarily set up a switch (starter button) here to allow activation of the starter directly, in the event the problem was not the relay.
Next, I took the car for a 30 minute drive, it started perfectly from cold as before but when I turned the engine off after the drive it was back to the no-start situation. This allowed me to test if the issue was indeed the starter, but using my switch the car started perfectly, but not with the key turn, probably proving that the issue is not the relay, but more likely the actual ignition switch, wiring from the ignition switch or possibly the switch in the gear selector or associated wiring.
For the moment I will live with the remote starter button I fitted but when I get more time later on I will check out the rest of the wiring. The trouble with this problem being intermittent is that I need to drive the car, get it warm, stop it, hope it won’t start, and then I have a small window of time to check for a bad circuit or dodgy switch before things cool down again. Irritating!
Here are some pictures for reference.
This shows the access to the starter with all pipes and hoses removed from below it.
Exhaust rubbers dropped, supported on jack with safety rope!
Propshaft unbolted and heat shields removed.
Heatshield removed from above right side driveshaft to try to get more access – didn’t help.
With the subframe dropped you can see the rear facing starter bolt (can you?)
Rear facing bolt circled here! I guess that it should be removable, but it would be very tricky and most likely would need the downpipe removed to give the required access.
Relay box
Wiring loom from starter to cabin inside the black sleeve here
Red / black wire here is direct to the starter trigger, the easiest place to directly jump 12V to the battery to check its function in the event of a no-start
2003 RS6 MTM 568
Re: Starter Motor failure
This looks the exact same thing wot I have with mine at the moment.skyegtb wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:21 pmOK, thought I would give an update to this. When I went back to my workshop I decided to just fit the sub frame back on and focus my attention on the wiring / relays. While the sub frame was still dropped I traced the 12V trigger wire at the starter back to the cabin and found (quite conveniently) that the wire (thickish possibly 6mm2 red / black stripe) is easily accessible from the top of the engine bay, just behind the air box at a connector! The cable runs up from the starter in a sleeve with the main 12V feed to the starter. This is handy info as it makes testing the starter by applying 12V to that cable a breeze. I tested the starter a few times by applying 12V directly from the battery here and as expected the engine turned over nicely.
So, with the engine back in place and all components refitted (approx 1.5 hours work) I turned my attention to the starter relay below the steering wheel and the associated wiring etc. First thing to do was remove the relay (53 on top row as seen in the pic below) and swap it for the other 53 relay at the bottom of the panel. I had a few spare 53 relays on my shelf, but thought I would just swap these over for an initial test. I also checked the wiring at the relay and can confirm that pin 87 at the socket leads directly to the 12V trigger input at the starter – very handy info too, as I temporarily set up a switch (starter button) here to allow activation of the starter directly, in the event the problem was not the relay.
Next, I took the car for a 30 minute drive, it started perfectly from cold as before but when I turned the engine off after the drive it was back to the no-start situation. This allowed me to test if the issue was indeed the starter, but using my switch the car started perfectly, but not with the key turn, probably proving that the issue is not the relay, but more likely the actual ignition switch, wiring from the ignition switch or possibly the switch in the gear selector or associated wiring.
For the moment I will live with the remote starter button I fitted but when I get more time later on I will check out the rest of the wiring. The trouble with this problem being intermittent is that I need to drive the car, get it warm, stop it, hope it won’t start, and then I have a small window of time to check for a bad circuit or dodgy switch before things cool down again. Irritating!
Here are some pictures for reference.
This shows the access to the starter with all pipes and hoses removed from below it.
Exhaust rubbers dropped, supported on jack with safety rope!
Propshaft unbolted and heat shields removed.
Heatshield removed from above right side driveshaft to try to get more access – didn’t help.
With the subframe dropped you can see the rear facing starter bolt (can you?)
Rear facing bolt circled here! I guess that it should be removable, but it would be very tricky and most likely would need the downpipe removed to give the required access.
Relay box
Wiring loom from starter to cabin inside the black sleeve here
Red / black wire here is direct to the starter trigger, the easiest place to directly jump 12V to the battery to check its function in the event of a no-start
Re: Starter Motor failure
Well, this thread just got me out of a sticky situation. Absolutely miles from home, car refused to turn over. Not even a click. I was able to start it by taking 12V directly to the 2 pin connector and bypassing whatever is causing the issue (F125, relay, or ignition switch). Will limp home and diagnose. Not going to make it without filling up though and I dare not turn off the engine.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: Starter Motor failure
It's interesting how there's several of us all with the same issue. I haven't taken mine out and stopped it anywhere other than home since I got it back. Too chicken to find out whether the issue is still there!
Hope you find out what is wrong with yours. I don't think mine was chucking codes either. It just decided not to start and not say why.
Hope you find out what is wrong with yours. I don't think mine was chucking codes either. It just decided not to start and not say why.
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steve2003rs6
- Cruising
- Posts: 2935
- Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:43 pm
Re: Starter Motor failure
Holy beep. However If mine starts doing this. I now know who to call ??????
Weird that a few on here having the same problem.
Weird that a few on here having the same problem.
Re: Starter Motor failure
To add insult to injury, while I was hypermiling home (didn't want to argue with petrol station attendant that I couldn't turn the engine off) there was a CRRAACK from my rearview mirror, it went all blurry and its lifeblood started leaking out. Luckily, I could catch it in a tissue. Feel like the car is punishing me.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: Starter Motor failure
I just got notified that this topic has a new post and realised I had not concluded it..... After the previous work and fitting the starter button etc I lived with the car like that for a while, then decided to change the starter switch behind the key. Easy enough job but quite fiddly. Anyway, that did not fix the problem but when I did my next fault code scan I found a new F125 related fault. Bingo, switched the f125 out for the 3rd time in my ownership and everything works perfectly again. Just a shame the f125 fault did not appear earlier but I am quite confident is saying that if you have a starting issue, thoroughly check the f125 first!
2003 RS6 MTM 568
Re: Starter Motor failure
I changed the F125 second after doing the starter motor replacement. The PRND doom lights were on and also it started doing nasty shifts so I'm fairly certain that was my issue.
Chocolate F125 strikes again.
Chocolate F125 strikes again.
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