Hi all,
Firstly Happy New Year to you all. We can only hope 2022 is a little easier on us all!
I'm just wondering if anyone has seen these sorts of values on block 93 when checking timing on a 2003 RS6 C5. Bank 1 is showing -11 and Bank 2 is 15, so a large variation across both banks. (See attached images).
The chain link count on both banks have been double checked and timing was set with the correct tools etc etc.
No error codes being shown and no misfires. Car running well although idle does sound a little off, but sits at 760rpm with no fluctuation.
I've checked both tensioner solenoids and they appear to be working fine with correct voltage to both. I think a fault here would throw up a P1347 code or incorrect values in block 90. Block 90 is within tolerance as shown in photo.
Could the timing just be out slightly causing these values or could it be stretched chains or sticky tensioners? Both tensioner pads are good.
Any advice would be hugely appreciated.
Cheers
RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
It's well out of spec. Only thing to do, if you're sure that the cam chains are installed correctly, is to redo the timing again.
Who last installed the belt? You? I've seen this kind of timing error when the belt change was a Tippex job and not a full resetting of the cam sprockets.
Or could be a duff tensioner.
Who last installed the belt? You? I've seen this kind of timing error when the belt change was a Tippex job and not a full resetting of the cam sprockets.
Or could be a duff tensioner.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Cheers,
Yes, agreed redoing the timing might be the sensible option.
I did the timing with the cam bar and crank pin, so not really sure how it could be that far out. Also tightened the cam bolts only after the tension had been set on belt. Both came spun freely and all marks on the cams aligned. New belt tensioner, idler pulleys etc etc all fitted, so no reservations in this regard.
Would a faulty timing chain tensioner throw those codes?
I assumed both tensioners are working fine with the block 90 values being in spec?
Cheers
Yes, agreed redoing the timing might be the sensible option.
I did the timing with the cam bar and crank pin, so not really sure how it could be that far out. Also tightened the cam bolts only after the tension had been set on belt. Both came spun freely and all marks on the cams aligned. New belt tensioner, idler pulleys etc etc all fitted, so no reservations in this regard.
Would a faulty timing chain tensioner throw those codes?
I assumed both tensioners are working fine with the block 90 values being in spec?
Cheers
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Non, the 90 values aren't for measuring this. They are relative values, not absolute.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Okay, cheers for the replies. Strange how it's not throwing up codes if the values are that far out!
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Hi again,
So just just got a new code which will hopefully help explain - P0022 - Bank 2 - Camshaft A(Intake). Advance set point not reached (Over-Retarded). See photo, also block 94 showing an issue with Bank 2.
Does this sound like a possible camshaft tensioner on Bank 2? I checked and power is getting to solenoid okay. Could this explain the value of 15 on measuring block 93 for Bank 2?
Thankfully its the right side to be changing if it is!
Cheers
So just just got a new code which will hopefully help explain - P0022 - Bank 2 - Camshaft A(Intake). Advance set point not reached (Over-Retarded). See photo, also block 94 showing an issue with Bank 2.
Does this sound like a possible camshaft tensioner on Bank 2? I checked and power is getting to solenoid okay. Could this explain the value of 15 on measuring block 93 for Bank 2?
Thankfully its the right side to be changing if it is!
Cheers
- Attachments
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Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
You get this error when the dephasing isn't reaching the correct value. IIRC it should measure between 16 and 25 degrees dephasing when activated. If your timing is off by 11 or 15 degrees, which is appears to be, then it's quite likely that when the dephaser activates you won't reach that spec, even if the dephaser is doing what it should.
I suppose maybe a dephaser is stuck in the extended position. Never heard of that happening, though. Usual failure mode is disintegration of pads or failure to extend which doesn't lead to the kind of timing error you are seeing.
I suppose maybe a dephaser is stuck in the extended position. Never heard of that happening, though. Usual failure mode is disintegration of pads or failure to extend which doesn't lead to the kind of timing error you are seeing.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
When you did the timing, did you replace the oval washers (with square keyway and locating holes for the timing bar) on the cam sprockets with new OE ones?
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Great points and thanks for taking the time to explain, yes I did replace the cam washers as there was very slight play on the old ones, just looks like new washers have less wear on the cast, but they were a snug fit, no play at all.
I will double check the tensioner on the passenger side before pulling the front apart for timing check. Is there an easy way to test the adjuster or how do they fail? My pads are definitely fine as I double checked them, no link tracks at all and all O.E.
If the timing mark on the exhaust cam lines up perfectly with the arrow with the crank locking pin in would this not confirm the timing is okay (on Bank 2)?
Cheers again, much appreciated!
I will double check the tensioner on the passenger side before pulling the front apart for timing check. Is there an easy way to test the adjuster or how do they fail? My pads are definitely fine as I double checked them, no link tracks at all and all O.E.
If the timing mark on the exhaust cam lines up perfectly with the arrow with the crank locking pin in would this not confirm the timing is okay (on Bank 2)?
Cheers again, much appreciated!
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Mɐʇʇ had some issues with timing after doing his belt and mentioned something about the exhaust cam marking. Have a search to see what that was about. Although his timing wasn't as far out as yours.
I know you said you double-checked it, but if the chain link count is wrong, say bank 1 number being used for bank 2 and vice versa, you could get this kind of timing error.
I know you said you double-checked it, but if the chain link count is wrong, say bank 1 number being used for bank 2 and vice versa, you could get this kind of timing error.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Yeah, I had a bit of a nightmare. I think part of the nightmare is self inflicted - taking the timing bar on and off wears the zinc on the oval washers a bit so there's a smidgen of slop. So a consequence of me anally checking and rechecking - actually makes it all worse.
In your shoes, aside from doing a reset of it all as I did, I'd be pulling off the NS rocker cover and looking at the cam itself. You can see in this post the close up pic I took of the exhaust cam when I got 0 on VCDS:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=133626&start=30#p928232
I think I calculated that a whole tooth off is a "gross error", way beyond 10 degrees. IIRC It's crank degrees - so 5 degrees off on the cam shows 10 degrees off in VCDS. So a full tooth would be MEGA.
If you compare my first pics on that thread (which were marginal/off spec) vs the 0/0 photo - you can see the difference in cam position is tiny. But with 15 degrees, it should be detectable directly on the cam markings I think.
Have you checked for wear on the follower shoes as well?
In your shoes, aside from doing a reset of it all as I did, I'd be pulling off the NS rocker cover and looking at the cam itself. You can see in this post the close up pic I took of the exhaust cam when I got 0 on VCDS:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=133626&start=30#p928232
I think I calculated that a whole tooth off is a "gross error", way beyond 10 degrees. IIRC It's crank degrees - so 5 degrees off on the cam shows 10 degrees off in VCDS. So a full tooth would be MEGA.
If you compare my first pics on that thread (which were marginal/off spec) vs the 0/0 photo - you can see the difference in cam position is tiny. But with 15 degrees, it should be detectable directly on the cam markings I think.
Have you checked for wear on the follower shoes as well?
"not a professional engineer, mechanic and mechanist"
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Balls. That thread was Jan 2020. That means I'm theoretically 2 years into the life of another cambelt change, despite having only done about 3500 miles since then.
"not a professional engineer, mechanic and mechanist"
Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Cheers Mɐʇʇ, super helpful!
So, looking into bank 2 I've taken a few pics of the tensioner and the misalignment of the cam marks are obvious. This would explain the advance on cam A I think? Ex cam notch is spot on and I'm still counting 15 links, but the tensioner appears very tight even though the car has been sitting for a week. The tensioner appears to be fully extended, with the super tight!
Another observation is the actual tensioner part number ending in 88, but from research the part number should end in 87. Is there a difference in bank 1 & 2 tensioners or will a tensioner from bank 1 work okay on bank 2? The heads have not been modified, just gaskets replaced.
As previous stated no issues at all from bank 1....
Thanks again for sharing your experiences....
So, looking into bank 2 I've taken a few pics of the tensioner and the misalignment of the cam marks are obvious. This would explain the advance on cam A I think? Ex cam notch is spot on and I'm still counting 15 links, but the tensioner appears very tight even though the car has been sitting for a week. The tensioner appears to be fully extended, with the super tight!
Another observation is the actual tensioner part number ending in 88, but from research the part number should end in 87. Is there a difference in bank 1 & 2 tensioners or will a tensioner from bank 1 work okay on bank 2? The heads have not been modified, just gaskets replaced.
As previous stated no issues at all from bank 1....
Thanks again for sharing your experiences....
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Re: RS6 BCY Timing Waaay out - Block 93 , Bank 1 -11 & Bank 2 15!
Right, bank 2 is on the left from the driver's perspective. Cylinders 5-8. Part number for the dephaser should be 077 109 087 P
They are different parts and not interchangeable. Maybe they have been put in upside-down when they were last replaced. Seems unthinkable that they would physically fit in the wrong positions, which is presumably exactly what whoever installed them thought.
I think you have found the cause of your problem.
They are different parts and not interchangeable. Maybe they have been put in upside-down when they were last replaced. Seems unthinkable that they would physically fit in the wrong positions, which is presumably exactly what whoever installed them thought.
I think you have found the cause of your problem.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
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