Suspect Abnormal Tyre Wear - RS6 Front Tyres

[chriswebb9]

Hello fellow RS6 owners!!
I'm new to the whole RS ownership excitement, but needless to say I hope you all love your cars like I do. The only way I could afford one was to remortgage the house to free up the cash. Needless to say, after stumping up a hefty sum and then parting with it at my Audi dealership, I'm a tad miffed to be arguing with them already about trying to get a problem sorted. Therefore, I'm casting the net out amongst you all, to see if any of you have had similar tyre problems and can offer some advice.

I don't believe it the tyres on this occasion, so I need to resolve the route cause of a problem, which I believe is as a result of abnormal tyre wear caused from a misalignment issue of my car's geometry. The car is an Audi RS6 Avant 2004 model.


Breif History -
I decided to abandon having an MOT with my dealer today, straight after I noticed excess tyre wear. The innermost edges of my car's tyre walls, which are normally out of sight under the wings, are actually down to the canvas, even though the remainder of the tyres surface area are generously above the tyre wear indicators. Please refer to the 'offside' & 'nearside' photos attached to visualise and help understand the concerns I have.

I'm the second owner of this car and therefore, haven't been party to the cars entire background to understand if this is an ongoing problem, either mechanically or by it's inherent design. However it has bought, serviced and maintained through the same dealer I bought it from. I asked them to have a look to see if there were any obvious issues causing it, but in short, I was told that this needs to be addressed at my cost. I have a comprehensive warranty and I persoanlly think that covering just 3000 miles since it's MOT 11 months ago when I bought the car from the Audi dealer, that this is unacceptable. I want them to inspect and repair the car under warranty, if they find that the wear is due to a steering fault, or tracking issue.

I'm am however, trying my best to be impartial with my dealer at present, as I've decided to gather more evidence from both Michelin and other RS6 owners before I try and argue my point any further with them.

Question 1 -
My dealer hasn't yet put the car on the alignment gear, but they are suggesting, that this wear is due to the cars camber setting on this vehicle, which is due to its perfomance and cornering geometry set-up. However, I think that if my dealer's opinion was right, the wear would then appear as a more gradual taper across the profile, starting from the exposed canvas and working out towards the opposite side of the tyres profile. If you look at the pictures, then if this were true, surely there wouldn't be such a consistent depth across the 3 centre channels and either side of it? The photos show that the tyre wear is almost up on the sidewall rather than the main contact patch area of the tyre during normal use.

I guess you can probably judge that my driving is far from erratic during cornering, as the outer edges of the tyres are not abnormally scuffed down to the point where they would get loaded up during cornering on the outside walls if I were driving fast into bends.


Question 2 -
I pay great attention to making sure the tyre pressures are accurate to the manufacturers recommended settings and this car benefits from an active monitoring system, so I've not driven the car with incorrect pressures. I don't believe this wear is a result of running excessive pressures (as the centre wear would be more pronounced). Alternatively if they were underinflated, I would imagine that both of the outer sections would display more of a wear mark across a larger area and of course the car would warn the driver accordingly.

My dealer wants me to change the front tyres before they will perform the geometry check / 4 wheel alignment, however, my reservations are that I would rather understand from you what may be wrong, before putting more wear and tear on another new set. I'm also worried they may just charge for one test after another just to provide me with answers based on their opinions, which may be different to your own.


Question 3 -
Finally, are the current Michelin Pilot Sport 2's fitted to my car when I bought it, the right tyre for this car?

I look forward to any comments that any of you may have and ideally any of you that have had similar wear, if you could advise what the problem is, I'd be very grateful if you could give me some guidance.

Happy motoring and kindest regards,
Chris Webb

[Gavc500]

It's not unusual, mine were the same, had 4 wheel alignment when first bought the car with new PS2's, then 20k later the front tryes surprised the hell out of me when I saw the outside at 3mm, but inside down to canvas!

Thought the 4 wheel alignment was wrong, took it back, checked it out, no issue, so must be the car setup..... although I was running slightly under pressure at 37lbft.

Checked bushes and steering, reported no issue...... but I was having variable DRC issues which might not help.

Seen others the same as well.

[GardinerG]

1. Not sure.
2. I wouldn't have thought your issue was pressure, but a low pressure would cause tyres to bulge out and potentially rub. BUT the TPMS would tell you if there was a problem (providing it is switched on!), and besides your shoulder wear does not appear to be drastically disproportionate to the centre, although I would say that there is a little more wear on the shoulders. What pressures are you currently running?
3. PS2s are generally thought to be the best tyres for the RS6, assuming you are running the Extra Load XL PS2, 255 35 19 on the original RS6 alloys? I only ask this as the damage appears to be on the sidewall and could indicate rubbing rather than a geometry problem.

HTH

Grant

[DavidT]

Welcome Chris I've sure we've heard from you before

[el_ringo]

I had this problem a few months back, it got so bad air was leaking out the sidewall and initially I didn't spot it. Not sure as to why it happened.

[mattysupra]

mine wear just fine. And yep i use my car around the bends too! It looks more like something is catching the edge of the tyre? What size tyre is on the front and are they standard wheels or after market copy alloys etc? Tyre pressure sensors work?

[chriswebb9]

Hello Mr. C450, the fact that you've been through this already, suggests that I'm going to be spending cash and not getting any scientific answers.

If you've got 20k out of any tyre on any car your doing well, so maybe I just need to buy a new set and keep an eye on them.

I wonder (and this question goes to all the forum readers), do Audi offer any engineering feedback from their prototype tests that their engineers would have collected during developement of the car?

Thanks for your feedback.
Regards,
Chris

It's not unusual, mine were the same, had 4 wheel alignment when first bought the car with new PS2's, then 20k later the front tryes surprised the hell out of me when I saw the outside at 3mm, but inside down to canvas!

Thought the 4 wheel alignment was wrong, took it back, checked it out, no issue, so must be the car setup..... although I was running slightly under pressure at 37lbft.

Checked bushes and steering, reported no issue...... but I was having variable DRC issues which might not help.

Seen others the same as well.

[chriswebb9]

Hi Grant,

Through fiddling with the dashboard display modules options, I've discovered the pressure sensor system settings. It is always on. Of course, the trouble is, I've bought somebody elses cast off, so I should really start again and keep an eye on the tyre wear from scratch with a new set.

Your comment about inner wear on anything under the wing is a worthwhile check. I'll jack her up on the weekend and have a looksie.

I'm following the pressure guide on the inside of the cars fuel flap, which in my case is 40 psi all round. I think this is where the problem lies actually on reflection, as although I'm getting even wear on the rears, I think there should be more pressure in the fronts due to the extra mass of engine and gearbox resting above them. It could be the force of this mass is creating a subtle distortion on the sidewall and a 5 to 10psi rise may help them out a bit. I've done it before on my Laguna V6 and it made the tyre wear more evenly without making any noticeable difference to steering feedback during normal driving speeds.

Who knows? As with all mysteries, there is a route cause and I'm determined to work it out, whether it be down to a problem, or simply a design issue that can be overcome by another means.

Finally, yes, they are the original alloys and the PS2's are the Extra Load XL PS2, 255 35 19's.

Rather than repeat everything, I have replied to Gavc450 with some of my other comments, based on his response, you may wish to have a look.

Thanks for your feedback anyway, I'll keep you posted if I have a Eureka moment with the problem.

Regards,
Chris.


menu

1. Not sure.
2. I wouldn't have thought your issue was pressure, but a low pressure would cause tyres to bulge out and potentially rub. BUT the TPMS would tell you if there was a problem (providing it is switched on!), and besides your shoulder wear does not appear to be drastically disproportionate to the centre, although I would say that there is a little more wear on the shoulders. What pressures are you currently running?
3. PS2s are generally thought to be the best tyres for the RS6, assuming you are running the Extra Load XL PS2, 255 35 19 on the original RS6 alloys? I only ask this as the damage appears to be on the sidewall and could indicate rubbing rather than a geometry problem.

HTH

Grant

[chriswebb9]

Hello Mr. T,

It must be me creeping into middle age, but I didn't realise that there were forums available on the internet. However, I'm glad there are and I must say, I'm enjoying using this one, now I've worked out how to use it ;0)

Having access to a countrywide group of enthusiasts is quite humbling. It's a great way of sharing info from the comfort of being at home - but them you already know that!!

I guess my next quantum leap should be to attend an RS6 group day out!!

Thanks for your help and support and keep up the good work with the RS246 team, it's appreciated.[

Regards,
Chris.

quote="DavidT"]Welcome Chris I've sure we've heard from you before [/quote]

[chriswebb9]

Hello el ringo!!

Canvas sidewalls is not a nice thing to discover is it?
I know one thing, I'll give the car a more thorough check before bouncing her off the speed limiter again! I will say though, that its a testament to the quality of the Michelin PS2 tyres, that they stayed together at that speed, as they looked like the photos and stood upto it - I won't be trying it again though.

Regards,
Stirling Moss

I had this problem a few months back, it got so bad air was leaking out the sidewall and initially I didn't spot it. Not sure as to why it happened.

[chriswebb9]

Dear black stealth bad boy,

I'm at risk of sounding like a record with my replies, as I'm new to the whole forum scene and wasn't expecting such a series of replies and so quickly.

I've been trying to preserve the tyres on bends until I got my MOT, however, now they're gone, the new set will go through some proper use ;0)

I'd be foolish not to have a look underneath as you advised.

Not reallt related to my original query, but you all seem to have a little preview as to your cars unique features on your signature strips. I noticed you've had yours tuned. Just out of interest, who did it? Any negative issues from doing it? I don't blame you, as I feel the cars std 450bhp is fairly sedate. If I had to criticise my car, the throttle pick up isn't violent and I rarely get a satisfying punch from the car, as in auto mode, it's nearly always in the wrong gear to be instantly responsive. It's a tad quiet too, do you have a Milltek system or similar? If you have, do you get any annoying booming over long journeys that give you a headache, or is it more smiles per miles?

Regards,
Chris

mine wear just fine. And yep i use my car around the bends too! It looks more like something is catching the edge of the tyre? What size tyre is on the front and are they standard wheels or after market copy alloys etc? Tyre pressure sensors work?

[GardinerG]

Hi Chris,

Let us know the outcome as it would be interesting to know. I did wonder if the geometry was wrong could the tyres be catching on the upper parts of the suspension.

Re remap. ignoring the BHP increase, the '6 when stock has a flat torque "curve". A tuned '6 has this effectively removed and the torque curve becomes a mountain - you feel the punch. Seriously though mine peaks at 780Nm at 4000rpm. In sports or tippy mode it is really fun

The gearbox will learn your driving style to a degree, so if you consistently drive sedately the gearshifts in Auto will be at lower rpms than if you were a l00ny driver. Sports mode usually gets the right gear whereas I use Drive for motorway/quiet cruising. The steering wheel paddles or buttons will allow you to get the right gear in Drive should you feel the urge.
When you tune the engine you can also tune the gearbox. Revo doesn't remap the gearbox but most custom tune places do, as to why you would best off ask them.

I'm also going Milltek within a month once I've decided resonated or non, it would be rude not to.

CheeRS!

Grant

[chriswebb9]

Hi Grant, hope everything is well with you n your beast! A big hello goes to the other readers too.

Well, the story of the tyre problem, concluded last month when I finally came to a negotiated agreement with my Audi dealer about costs and the issues of tyre wear.

I've had a fair bit of work and expense done on the car in one go whilst I was at the dealer, as it was due cambelt, and 36k service, aircon regas, coolant change, brake fluid flush as the car is now 4 years old and the infamous tyres!

The problem with the tyre wear unfolded in two parts, the first was that I to put new tyres on the car so that the Audi technicians could use the Beissbarth geometry gear. When this was fitted and the checks performed, the alignment on the toe out was found to be excessive.

The second part was found to be that Michelin make a specific version of the PS2 for the RS6 its called the R01 variant. My car did not have these tyres fitted and thus the sidewalls of the tyres were not suited to my car.

Michelin can't keep up demand for PS2's and this is shown by the complete lack of PS2's being available for the size required for the RS6, it may also explain why I had the incorrect set on my car.

So, the dealer advised me to plump for the Pirelli PZero Rosso's. I must say, they are a pretty tyre in terms of tread pattern and how they appear on the car. The price was reasonable too, as the full set came out at £740.

Upon collecting the car the feelling was instantly noticeable, the steering felt lighter and the road noise was reduced. Now my first thoughts were maybe these aren't gripping the road as much as the Michelins and that may be the case in the dry, but I've had the Michelins making the front wander out on bends, but the Pirelli's haven't in similar conditions. My conclusions from this would be that for everyday driving I have a more suitable tyre for all weather conditions, which suits my needs.

As for tyre presuures, well, I'm a firm beliver that they need to be visually right after putting in what is advised on the RS6's fuel flap. By this, in the case of the Pirelli's I have aimed to get the tyre surface level with the road and on the fronts a bit more to reduce it's tendancy to roll over on the side walls. So, 42psi in the rears and 48psi in the fronts seems to to the job nicely.

I've done a 1000 miles since the tyres were fitted and I've been keeping an eye on the wear. So far everything is fine, there's no noticeable imbalance in the wear on the insides of the sidewalls now, so the tyres and geometry appear to have made a difference.

I'm hoping that after parting with £2500 for the tyres, and service items mentioned above, that I can now just get on and enjoy the car.

If I had to spend any more money on the car, it wouyld now be to actually make it feel more sporty by having it tuned and meatier sounding exhaust. I'll consider these though after the warranty has run out.

I hope the RS community found the tyre feedback in this mail useful. I'd certainly say that if nothing else, if you have abnormal tyre wear, get it checked properly, as there is a problem lurking there somewhere that your tyres are trying to tell you!

Finally - Enjoy your car and make the most of it before the ECO do-gooders stop these monster cars being used on the roads.


Regards,
Chris




Note="GardinerG"]Hi Chris,

Let us know the outcome as it would be interesting to know. I did wonder if the geometry was wrong could the tyres be catching on the upper parts of the suspension.

Re remap. ignoring the BHP increase, the '6 when stock has a flat torque "curve". A tuned '6 has this effectively removed and the torque curve becomes a mountain - you feel the punch. Seriously though mine peaks at 780Nm at 4000rpm. In sports or tippy mode it is really fun

The gearbox will learn your driving style to a degree, so if you consistently drive sedately the gearshifts in Auto will be at lower rpms than if you were a l00ny driver. Sports mode usually gets the right gear whereas I use Drive for motorway/quiet cruising. The steering wheel paddles or buttons will allow you to get the right gear in Drive should you feel the urge.
When you tune the engine you can also tune the gearbox. Revo doesn't remap the gearbox but most custom tune places do, as to why you would best off ask them.

I'm also going Milltek within a month once I've decided resonated or non, it would be rude not to.

CheeRS!

Grant[/quote]

[grizz]

Hi & welcome . Aleays nice to have another rs6 on the forum . Grizz

[Lig]

Hi Chris,

Good post,

Reading your last update, I am suprised at the pressures, as I am also running PZ Rossos, have been for 15K miles now and I noticed slightly more wear at the fronts to the middle of the tyre, I was running 40psi all round (as per filler cap) but now have reduced this to 38psi and will see what happens. Is 48psi not a little too high?????!!!!!

Regards,
Lig.