RS3 8V: One step at a time

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:35 pm

Thanks for the positive feedback guys. It's really appreciated. :)

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:36 pm

**Because there is so much to go through and document (that has taken place over one and half days), I'm going to document over the next few days and release updates as they're produced at appropriate points**

Engine Stage 1 Development
Apologies to those of you who understand the theory side of tuning, or those that are simply not interested. Something I like to do is provide some background physics explanation and/or theories, when I explain new elements that are being investigated and/or tested. Many people find this interesting and I feel it adds appropriate context to the what and why questions.

The old skool way of anything relating to “Stage 1” used to be exhaust, air filter and a carburettor rejetting and/or ignition timing alterations. Whilst methods may have changed since the “old days”, the principals remain the same.

In respect of the internal combustion engine: more air in (and more exhaust gas out), more fuel in, more ignition, bigger bang and what do we have……. more POWER!!

Luckily with modern set-ups, (read: ECU’s) and of course forced induction (turbo charging), the results can be quite dramatic, with relatively little effort.

Talking of turbo charging, whilst I suspect we know what this term relates to, do we all actually know how it works?

Simply put:
- air is effectively sucked in through the air filter; through the compressor side of the turbo (which, as the name suggests compresses the air to make it more dense by volume);

- through a cooling unit to increase/retain density, into the combustion chamber of each cylinder;

- this air is nice and dense (compared to an engine that is not turbocharged), so when you add fuel (proportionally) and introduce a spark you get a much bigger bang;

- on the downward stroke of the piston the exhaust gas passes through the exhaust manifold/headers (via the exhaust valves opening), through the turbo (exhaust side), which drives the compressor (compressor and exhaust on the turbo core work together - suck and blow air) and the cycle starts again.

Sounds quite complicated to explain but the physics are pretty simple.

Basic engine “tuning” nowadays (more so for turbocharged vehicles) normally relates to an ECU (Engine Control Unit) “remap”. Which crudely put, is done by changing values within the ECU “map”, which tells your engine what to do in relation to fuel, air and ignition.

Same as “old days”, just using different methods to control it all.

For the majority of us we don’t really care what this side entails. As long as we get the expected results, who cares what parameters have to be changed and for what reason…… but equally there are a number of us who are interested.

Mapping needs to be undertaken by a professional that really knows their stuff. Many people claim they are experts, but in my experience, this does not always relate to a good job. Whether that relates to a fast car (or not) or, probably more importantly, one that doesn’t grenade itself due to a bad map. In my opinion one of the biggest and most key decisions you’ll ever make when tuning a car, is who maps it and should you require this, who builds you an engine. NEVER take these decisions lightly. Do your research guys (as I’m sure some of you are already too well aware of).

Tuning Box - For Information
Whilst I was initially aiming (even up to the day of Day 1 performance tuning kick off) to look at tuning boxes first, a decision was made on the day to utilise the better method (in respect of overall results possible) of ECU tuning.

Just for added information though I will give some background information on tuning boxes...

Nasty way of tuning or actually a method that can work? I used to always think the former if I’m being honest.

Having been a part of the Ford and then the Subaru scene originally, you’d never dream of using a tuning box. In fact I never liked the idea of using these devices even with my daily diesel hack. However, I’ve always open to some testing and finding stuff out.

So what does a tuning box actually do (yeah, yeah - it tunes!!!)...

Whilst we’ve established the basics of air, fuel and spark make power, and we’ve also stated that modern engines control all of this via the ECU. Where does a tuning box fit in all of this then?

Most tuning boxes effectively sit between certain engine sensors, reading data going to or coming from a sensor, from or to the ECU. A tuning box can basically “alter” data between what is read in and what is sent out of it.

The most crude of tuning boxes will simply use a form of linear resistance bridged either over one sensor or between two. These types of tuning boxes would be best avoided in my opinion.

The most advanced ones have heavily populated data tables on them, which cross reference many things to provide safer control, across multiple sensors, and even allow you to make incremental changes to the overall settings of the box. This provides an element of flexibility for differing conditions and environments.

Even after doing my research on tuning boxes I still felt a bit uneasy, as “altering” data between the sensors and ECU never really sat well with me, as I was always concerned about the safety elements, that effectively the ECU would not be in total control.

This is where modern ECU’s appear to help the cause.

Modern ECU’s can have a lot of self learning and to a degree, on the fly mapping adjustment capabilities. Many ECU’s are now able to adjust fueling and ignition (within certain boundaries) based upon readings from a number of the engine sensors. So even if a tuning box requests more boost, the ECU detects that a fuel mixture is running lean and will add more fuel to compensate (again, being very simplistic). Assuming the tuning box works in conjunction with the ECU capabilities and engine, you could have quite a nifty setup available for a Stage 1 tune.

The single biggest advantage of a tuning box is because it sits between your ECU and sensors, it can be easily removed and (in most cases) undetectable - read: warranty friendly.

I would suggest the biggest downside (let’s assume the tune levels and setup is safe) is that a “proper” remap (which may also bring issues around warranty) of the ECU tables may provide better gains. Not always in peak figures for Stage 1, but a custom map of your car will probably net driveability gains.

Based on the testing I did with my previous A45, using a Tuning Box gave good results. I know Tuning Boxes still get bad press, but it’s my opinion that this can be largely down to how aggressive the Tuning Box map is, and the tables / protection on the ECU that it contends with.

I didn’t have any problems with the Tuning Box I used on my A45, but I know others have. I would also suggest that the tune on my Tuning Box was not that aggressive compared to some others. I think this was perhaps the reason why I never experienced issues.

Tuning boxes exist for the RS3, but I don’t know how these perform with data I have collected. Your own mileage may vary.

Getting An Initial Baseline
So before fitting / changing anything I needed to gain a baseline with the RS3 in standard guise.

Just for clarity we will conduct three runs for each test. The first one to ensure the engine, ancillaries and transmission are up to effective temperature, and the final two to gauge consistency of figures.

The MAHA dyno simulates quite a lot of load, and the runs can be longer than on some other dynos. As long as the dyno cell has proper/effective airflow, this won’t be an issue and it helps to ensure that appropriate load is being seen by the engine and ECU for each run (as you would see on the road).

Something else we’ll be making use of to ensure that we can gauge an element of satisfaction around what the ECU is seeing and how the engine is reacting, is to monitor detonation / knock. This is very important when you’re tuning a car, to appreciate whether or not you’re getting pre-ignition. This can be caused by all manner of things, and is ultimately bad news for your engine (damage to pistons, rings and crank bearings etc). I’m sure you’ve all heard of tuned engines that have melted a piston....... knock is one of your enemies.

The ECU will have it’s own knock strategy (many modern ECU’s are so powerful nowadays), and be surly recording any knock events (via a knock sensor located on the engine block) in it’s logs. It will use this information to “learn” (within certain boundaries), adapting ignition (by retarding) etc to reduce the occurrence of any knock event, once an event has been “seen”. Once we get into the ECU side of things we should be able to log this more effectively. We’ll be using a mixture of DET CANS and ECU logs whilst testing work is being done on the dyno and road, to ensure we can “listen” for any knock events that happen. This is in part, to make sure any level of tune is “safe”. In layman's terms, DET CANS consist of a microphone and a set of headphones. The noise of DET happening can be distinguished through the headphones, to a person who has a trained ear.

Dyno Corrections Used
I want to get this out of the way to provide ABSOLUTE clarity to the dyno results we will see throughout this project.

Nearly every dyno has a correction facility, which based on whatever correction factor is being applied, will use data from the environment (barometric pressure, inlet temps, ambient temps etc) in conjunction with a calculation to normalise the power readings. This is to ensure (any dyno accuracy of readings in general to one side) that it does not matter (to a degree) whether you dyno your car on a hot day or a cold day, your figures will be comparative. These correction factors are a leveller to normalise figures regardless of environment atmospheric conditions.

I would suggest that you only use a dyno that has corrections applied, for any reasonable power output figure.

The large majority of data and dyno set-ups in the EU will use the DIN correction factor. However, the latest correction factor that is being adopted across the EU now (and certainly by the manufacturers) is EWG. The short and tall of it is EWG will generally provide LOWER figures than DIN.

Make sure your dyno graph has a correction factor for starters, and then ensure any other graph you’re comparing with, is using the same factor. Don’t forget the differences can sway both ways as well.

If you compound correction factors with “optimistic” dynos, you’ll now start to understand why there is some major disparity with dyno numbers in the wild. Certainly with some of the figures being touted around the forums.

Just be open minded about all of this….. AND DON’T CONCENTRATE ON DYNO NUMBERS in isolation!

Since a lot of the comparable data in the community for the RS3 has been measured by using DIN, that will be the correction factor I’ll be using for the time being (it will be clearly marked as such on each graph).

Image

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by RS6chris! » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:05 pm

Wow

Ever thought of setting your own tuning business up!!
RS6 C8 carbon black(merlin)
RS6 C8 launch edition
R8 V10 plus
C7 RS6 PE dynamic pack plus
C7 RS6
Porsche Panamera Turbo
C6 RS6 AVANT
RS4 B7
Golf R32 mk 5
BMW M3 E46
Golf R32 mk 5
Golf GTI mk 5
VW Passat 130d 4 motion
VW bora 150pd
Ford Mondeo Ghia X V6
Ford Focus zetec
Rover 214!!

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:56 pm

No thanks! :D

I'm just an enthusiast mate. :)

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:58 pm

TEST 1 - Baseline Figure
Apologies as I’m awaiting the separate stock graph PDF to be sent to me. I’ll update this as soon as I have it. The graph is used on some of the overlays seen further on, so at least we have clear reference points at the moment to discuss.

Summary of Spec
Standard MY16 RS3
Fuel - VPower Nitro (99 oct)

TEST 1 figure achieved was 388bhp & 350lbft @ the flywheel

TEST 1 - Baseline Figure - Comments
Well we already appreciate how quick this car is, even in standard form on the black stuff. But in reality this is due to a number of things. The area under the curve, the gearbox and Haldex system - as a complete package it pretty much rocks, but what does the “pretty” graph tell us about the power delivery.

The area under the curve is always more relevant than the peak figures.

I can normally look at an entire power graph and make a decent judgement as to the potential of the power delivery and flexibility on the road, taking into account the power band and torque available. Make no mistake, it’s the torque that gets you to where you want to go…. Quicker.

Since the MAHA RR is able to appropriately load the engine up, you can deduce how the turbo comes on song. You can see here that you’re achieving near (around 340lbft) peak torque at around 2600rpm, which in 4th gear is pretty good. Suffice to say, due to loading, you will see peak torque coming in slightly earlier the higher the gear. So 5th would see this 2800rpm drop slightly….. this is all normal (3rd gear would be slightly later and so on).

Low rpm’s for torque makes for more pace from lower revs, however by looking at this torque curve you see the RS3 holds this torque pretty well all the way through to 5800rpm. For a road car that is a nice torque band. This is why the mid-range feels really strong on the RS3 and explains why the engine keeps pulling through the rev range. When you combine a wide torque band, with an early onset of torque, you end up with a very agile package.

There are a few peaks and troughs throughout the torque curve, but these don’t really “get in the way” of the power delivery. We’ll come on this later.

When we also see how much more power/torque this turbo can provide further on, it makes the overall set-up even more amazing.

So what else can we find out?

Another advantage of most rolling roads is that you can also capture and overlay other data, that is gathered at the time of the dyno run. This data either comes from plugging the dyno into your OBD port, or buy connecting additional sensors to the dyno, directly connected to the car.

I did capture a lot of data on all runs but it was a mix between additional sensors (true wide band sensor), ODB to dyno and also using VCDS. Which leads me on to the next subject….

VCDS (previously known as VAGCOM)
I won’t bore you guys with talking about what VCDS is…. I’m suspecting most of you guys know, but what I will concentrate on is talking about the logging facilities as this was the real reason why I purchased VCDS.

In basic terms the ECU reads a varied number of sensors (some dependant on OEM ECU version). Upon looking at the sensor readings available via VCDS, you may be overwhelmed by what data sets can be logged.

You may be thinking why I can’t just plug in a simple OBD reader into the car and use a smartphone app etc to read the sensors. The main constraint with this is that these loggers / scanners only read generic OBD codes (PID’s) generally. Some applications will also decipher / read manufacturer specific codes, but not to the extent that VCDS does. VCDS reads all the VAG sensors that I’m aware of, and it’s access to this information that I wanted.

Whilst some may be meaningful, others will have the reaction of "What the hell does that mean?". Obviously to a professional or knowledgeable enthusiast, this will equate to useful data but in reality the majority of us will neither understand or be interested to a degree...... but make no mistake they can all be meaningful.

Here is a screenshot of a log I took (excuse the rather slow sample rate - that’s my fault) for the stock level of tune.

Image

This specific screen shot shows two logs in the same file.

They both contain all sorts of data varying from timing <beep> per cylinder, boost, charge air temp and ambient temps, fueling, overall ignition, camshaft timing etc. You can view all sorts of useful date which is very very useful (needed) when you’re mapping. All of these are normally recorded against RPM.

There are so many different sensors and you can log up to 12 different sensors at a time in VCDS.

Stock Boost
As we’re talking about the stock tune here, you can use the screenshot above to see how much boost the car makes on a stock tune as seen at the manifold.

If you look at the Engine Speed column on the left (uppermost log) and scan across to the last column (Intake Manifold Pressure), you’ll see what boost was achieved at what RPM. Whilst the sample rate is quite slow (as in the RPM increments), this does give you a good idea of boost attained at the manifold.

You must remember that the boost shown includes 1 atmosphere of measure as these are absolute readings, so you must take 1 atmosphere (1 bar effectively) off to get an appropriate reading. These are also shown in hPa as opposed to PSI or BAR. 1000 hPa is basically 1 bar, so it doesn’t take long to work it all out.

I’ll do the conversion to BAR to make it easier for you to read:

Image

Whilst it doesn’t show it in this log, stock boost peaks at around 1.2bar, but you can see that boost does fluctuate throughout the rev range. This is also shown in the torque curve, which for a standard car isn’t that flat to be honest. On the stock dyno runs of the RS3 you can see the torque (and power) fluctuate through the mid range, and this is largely due to boost fluctuation / control. Boost control could have been tighter to be honest, but it is what it is.

As you may expect, you can see boost tails off towards the redline (just below 1bar).

Charge Temp
Something else you can see on the above log is the Intake Air Temp which is the temperature of the air after the intercooler. This is very important for turbocharged cars and is certainly an area that can cost you power as well as gain you power.

Effectively the cooler the air entering the engine after the turbocharger (and intercooler), the more dense it is and the the bigger bang you can achieve. Figures you attain here can inform you whether you’re over heating the charge air (by running the turbo beyond its efficiency) and/or have an effective intercooler.

It’s also useful to log the ambient temperatures so you can see the delta (difference) between the two temps.

You’ll see here that the charge temp (intake) is fairly OK, but rises as the run moves through the revs and more boost is being applied and everything heats up.

Cooler charge temps are the best (icing issues to one side), but I was always told in the old days that ideally you should aim for charge temps below 40degs. Anything over that will apparently start to impact power more.

Considering this is a dyno cell, and although it has very good airflow, it can’t match the cooling the car would receive on the road, so the figures attained here on the oem setup are OK. Repeated dyno pulls will start to increase temps, but on the runs we did they quickly stabilised again.

Fuelling
Again on the same log above you’ll see fuelling being logged (shown by the column giving a Lambda reading). Ignoring the last row @ 6733 (the throttle was lifted here), the Lambda figure slowly decreases as the revs rise. This means the fuelling starts off lean (more air than fuel) and gradually richens up (more fuel) as the power / boost rises. What you would expect.

It is possible to gain power (and lose it) depending on what fueling strategy you choose. Rich or lean mixtures have their benefits and disbenefits. However, I’m led to believe that with direct injection (as used in the RS3), you have much more flexibility with what you can do with the fuelling.

Ignition
The final element to highlight is the ignition adjustment, which is also on the same log above.

Again, as the rev rise and boost builds the ignition is slowly adjusted, with stock peak ignition adjustment running at around 11degs of advance.

All the above are the basic elements to consider when tuning a turbocharged car. There are a lot more, certainly in this ECU on the RS3, but these are the basics. But you’ll probably appreciate now how important log information can be, especially when you’re looking to start tuning a car.

So with the benchmark data logged and the car pulled off the dyno…. Let’s move on to the first item to change.

Secondary Decats
Quite a common mod on the RS3 so I thought it would be rude not to.

The RS3 has several cats, both in the downpipe and the secondary mid section. It’s the secondary ones I decided to remove as it’s a fairly straight forward and inexpensive mod.

To be honest the OEM exhaust system doesn’t look that restrictive visually, but may need to be looked at further down the line.

You’d have thought that removing a couple of cats would release some power. We’ll find out.

The main reason I chose this mod was for the noise increase though. Whilst the stock car sounds very nice, I wanted to unleash that rumble a touch more. If we saw any increase in power that would be a bonus, but it wasn’t really expected from my perspective.

These are what we’re going to remove:
Image

These are what we’re going to replace them with, a set of Miltek secondary decat pipes:
Image

With both sets side by side:
Image

It’s clearly quite obvious what the difference is between the two sets of pipes!

So with the new decats on, it was time to bang the car on the dyno and see what we could see.

TEST 1 - Secondary Decats
Apologies as I’m awaiting the decta graph PDF to be sent to me. I’ll update this as soon as I have it.

Summary of Spec
MY16 RS3
Miltek Secondary Decat Pipes
Fuel - VPower Nitro (99 oct)

TEST 1 figure achieved was 394bhp & 355lbft @ flywheel
Because I haven’t got the graph in front of me I don’t have the exact figures (again apologies), but from what I remember we saw circa +6bhp and +5lbft over stock. I can’t remember whether this was only peak or throughout the rev range though. I’ll update when I get the graph in my hands.

I know others have reported more increases, but unfortunately I can only state what I
achieved. To be honest I’m not surprised.

Looking at my VCDS logs it doesn’t appear to have affected boost control, which if there was less of a restriction on the exhaust side by a tangible amount, I would expect to see changes in wastegate duty / boost achieved.

It’s sounded awesome on the dyno though….. It has a proper “growl on” when you open it up. Worth the cost 100% just for that in my opinion!

I was going to disconnect the exhaust valves as well, but never got around to it. I might revisit that in the future.

I also can’t tell you whether driveability was affected, not that I would expect this to be the case in reality to any noticeable degree. The first time I got the car on the road was after the next stage of tuning….. Which we’ll come on to next and something I’m sure you guys will be more interested in.

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:59 pm

ECU Remap
This is undoubtedly the key element for this development phase and where most of the time has been spent.

The RS3 uses the Bosch MED 17.1.x ECU family…… without going into a massive amount of detail, this ECU is one very powerful mofo. The amount of control it can have over how the engine performs is pretty mind blowing. The art of making the car “sing”, utilising/modifying the appropriate calibrations (there are well over 100,000 of these!) and ensuring you’re not hitting the protection tables (ultimately resulting in power being pulled down), is where the time and effort is needed.

It goes without saying that even from a pure technical and in essence, logical standpoint, a properly mapped ECU should be overall, far better than a tuning box (convenience to one side).

One of the plus sides of mapping the MED 17.1.x is the fact that this can be accessed fully via the OBD port. I don’t personally know if all current tuners are using this method, I suspect they are to be honest. The other method (as is the case with the A45) is via a method known as BDM. The process to achieve this is commonly referred to as a “bench tune”, which effectively means the ECU is pulled out of the car and programmed. This also makes tuning a bit of a time consuming effort, assuming you need to alter and test different calibration adjustments. It means you program the ECU (out of the car and you normally open it up); refit; log on road/dyno; pull ECU out and make adjustments and refit/log again - repeat until you get bored!

Fortunately the RS3 has OBD programming access.

So how is the programming done - put simply a laptop with the programming software is connected to the ECU via the cars OBD port, and the new map file is written to the ECU…. all in situ. It takes around 10 minutes to reprogram the ECU with each new map file.

Enough screens for you?

Image

TEST 2 - ECU Remap and Secondary Decats
Whilst I’m reporting this as TEST 2, there was a whole process that we went through to get to this point. This was certainly not the first map that was created (in fact it was the last one of the day), but was where we finished up at the end of this specific session. If memory serves me correctly we created at least 7 maps, each one altering a single area to see what the effect was, then rolling up the “good” changes with the next change. Basically taking an incremental approach.

Image

Summary of Spec
MY16 RS3
Litchfield Stage 1 ECU calibration
Miltek Secondary Decat Pipes
Fuel - VPower Nitro (99 oct)

TEST 2 figure achieved was 421.6bhp & 408.7lbft @ flywheel
Comparing this against the stock figure (which is the comparison the graph above shows) we saw the following:
+33.6 bhp +58.7 lbft (peak) over stock
+8.6% bhp +16.7% lbft (peak) over stock

I’ve banged on about this before (probably), but in my experience of using most makes of dynos in the UK over the years, I have always found MAHA dynos to provide quite a stingy torque figure…. Certainly in comparison to other dyno makes. So it’s worth bearing this in mind when you compare figures. Which is seen here with the stock figures as much as the tuned figures in my opinion. But it is what it is.

TEST 2 - Comments
I certainly know I’ve said this before, but one thing that is very important in my opinion, is to not just focus on peak power figures. You really need to look at the whole rev range and thus the whole area UNDER the curve to appreciate improvements.

Considering this was after the initial mapping session, and whilst the peak figures attained are good, there are higher improvements being seen in the mid range.

Looking at the graph you can see that whilst torque is by and large a nice increase throughout the mid range by around +60lbft, the power is seeing increases through the mid range of +50 bhp.

To me, for a road car, it’s about torque and mid range grunt.

TEST 2 - Road
Yeah….. That’s different!

I’ve always thought the stock RS3 was already quick, which is in part down to it’s power delivery and smoothness. This map just amplified the stock delivery, whilst retaining the stock characteristics. This map almost felt too smooth though, however, smooth delivery can mean in reality a quick car!

The car was certainly more urgent in the mid range (increased torque) and felt like it was pulling harder at the top end.

Being honest I suppose I was expecting more. Don’t know why though. Although expectation is normally high when going through a tuning process, but let’s be honest, this map was far from finished. So I needed to put things into perspective.

It felt good and quicker, but just didn’t blow my socks off. But then will Stage 1 ever do that. We’re all greedy aren't we!

The noise……

Initially I didn’t think there was much of a difference on the road, but when you start driving a bit more, you really do notice the bigger growl. Because the RS3 switches the exhaust flaps dependant on throttle, it is more or less as before until you open it up….. Then it really does sounds awesome. Something I have noticed is perhaps a very slight drone now at cruise 70-80mph. It’s only very slight and I can’t say I noticed it before. It’s certainly a great and cheap mod to make in my opinion. These engines sound awesome…. These decat pipes just makes it sound that much more awesome!

It was agreed to carry on with the mapping development in a couple of days time.

TEST 3 - Revised ECU Remap and Secondary Decats
So, the second session of mapping commenced. First off we took a Day 2 baseline run just to ensure that we were still where we left off on the previous session. This run was within a couple of BHP of where we were at the end of Day 1 (as per TEST 2), so we were good to go.

Again, just to go through the process we followed…. On Day 2 we took the map (currently on the car) from the end of Day 1 and called that Stage 1 v1. During this session we went through a similar task as the previous session, carrying on where we left off. During this session we created 9 new maps, although the last revision didn’t make any positive difference so we reverted back to the v8 map from this session. Litchfield’s had already created 6 new maps prior, and we created 3 additional new ones on the day (using what was learnt during this specific session).

We were on the dyno for around 4 hours for this session.

Image

Summary of Spec
MY16 RS3
Litchfield Stage 1 ECU calibration
Miltek Secondary Decat Pipes
Fuel - VPower Nitro (99 oct)

TEST 3 figure achieved was 433.6bhp & 437.3lbft @ flywheel
Comparing this against TEST 2 figure (which is the comparison the graph above shows) we saw the following:
+12.0 bhp +28.6 lbft (peak) over TEST 2
+2.8% bhp +6.9% lbft (peak) over TEST 2

Overall Stage 1 Test 3 comparison against stock
+45.6 bhp +87.3 lbft (peak)
+11.7% bhp +24.9% lbft (peak)

Image

TEST 3 - Comments
Obviously at this stage all I had to go by was the dyno data (and logs), but if you appreciate what a “good” road car dyno graph can look like, this is one of them in my opinion.

Two things to point out initially about the graph. One being the way the car was loaded up for this run. This is highlighted by the initial shape of the torque and power curve up to around 2150rpm. This isn’t a mapping issue which has caused this, this is purely because the car was not loaded on the dyno from a low enough rpm. It’s just the way this one was run (mistake by the dyno operator). It’s only that initial part of the run that was affected.

The second point (and I’m being really nit picking / anal here) is the very very slight dip (it’s probably in the region of 6lbft) in torque from 3-3800rpm. That is also replicated in the power curve for the same rpm. This is due to a very minor but further adjustment being needed to the boost control, as it looks like the ECU thinks it’s going to overboost just as it reaches initial peak boost, so it pulls back the boost slightly and then increases the boost again.

These two minor things to one side, this is such a smooth curve. The torque is virtually flat decked throughout the mid range. The power curve also looks so linear up to peak power, and then manages to hold that peak (virtually) through to the limiter.

If you compare the stock torque curve through the mid range, and even the torque curve result as part of the first mapping session, you will see that there is so much more control now in this area on this version of the map.

Even without getting the car on the road (which we did when we were happy with map, just to double check the logs on the black stuff), the curves alluded to a very nice driveable map.

As before let’s look at what increases have been seen through the mid range…..

In parts we’re talking +100 lbft and on average +90 lbft. With the BHP you’re seeing +80 bhp through a large amount of the same mid range. Those are some significant increases!

Due to time cracking on it was decided to call it a day….. For now.

For further context here is a dyno comparison of just a sample of the maps tested during this recent session. I won’t go into boring detail but you can see differences in the runs which were the outcome of the different maps. This was all part of the testing / learning process to end up with the final result.

Image

TEST 3 - Road
Being honest I really wasn’t expecting much of a change on the road from the previous session map outcome. Perhaps I’d just desensitised myself. Lol

I fully appreciate this will be so subjective, but I thought I would just share the feedback I provided back to Iain after I go home. This is straight up and honest feedback, that was certainly never intended to be made public. But since this is what I felt / feel, I thought I would share.

“It's jeffing awesome mate.

I've never seen the traction control light coming on so much!!!! lol

I was genuinely laughing and smiling on the way home.

It's feels like a totally different car since Wednesday's map, which I wasn't expecting.

Whilst it's still very smooth and the gearbox just sucks everything up you give it, the way the power comes in (urgency and magnitude) on a low rpm pull is fantastic. With the A45 it felt you had to properly wind it up (they are pretty much at the same peak figure level now). With this though, it's much more responsive and instant.

You can feel a big improvement both in the midrange and top end since Wednesday. It feels quite exciting when you keep your foot in, which it didn't on Wednesday. Mid range feels very smooth.... but it feels like it's pulling so hard.

Top end feels like it's giving measurable improvements over Wednesday.

I look forward to your further map tweaks!!!! Get mashing that keyboard!!!!”


To be honest I’m not going to add anything else. I could keep banging on about how it feels etc but there is little point wasting bandwidth! lol

For me that’s Stage 1 done and dusted.

I intend to get down the quarter mile again this weekend and also carry out some VBOX logging. As and when I get these performance measures I’ll update this thread. It will be interesting to see where the car is in relation to my stock performance data.

Stage 2 will begin in a couple of weeks…. So expect more news on that very soon!

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by FaisalJ » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:10 pm

Loving this thread, good work!

That torque "curve" is quite something- I bet overtaking is fun!
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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:47 pm

Many thanks! :)

I love a nice flat torquey setup for the road. Makes acceleration very linear and very driveable.

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:05 pm

Performance Testing - Stock vs Stage 1
It’s alright having dyno graphs but this is all about (in my opinion) how any power relates to performance on the black stuff.

I don’t tend to drive my car on the dyno to work and back, so it’s always good to use other forms of reference to measure changes.

Something I will do throughout this project is give you the good, the bad and the ugly. This is all about a journey and things won’t always go to plan etc…. That’s life especially with car tuning. Hopefully negative things will be infrequent though.

So what are we going to use to benchmark performance at this level of tuning…. Acceleration runs, specifically down the quarter of a mile.

I’ve already mentioned about using a VBOX to measure acceleration, so that will certainly be used and I’ve also ran the car down Santa Pod dragstrip when it was stock. So we’ll use that as another means to judge performance.

VBOX Data
Some of you may take the data I will provide in this update and immediately compare it against other data available on the net. Whilst it is fine to do that, you do need to be very careful that you’re comparing apples with apples.

The fact is that you can get VBOX data from any location you choose. Some of those locations maybe uphill or downhill. Some of the data captured may actually be corrupt. When you use a VBOX and look at the screen for the results gained, that won’t tell you ANYTHING about the integrity of the data and run. I know it’s 100% possible to log a run on a VBOX that is both downhill and has dropped satellite connection part way through the run….. Both of these elements can GREATLY influence the figures given by just using the onboard screen of the VBOX.

How do you verify that the data and run is pucka?

You must ensure a memory card is in the VBOX to store the logs and check the data validity on both the desktop software that comes with the VBOX and using an online tool called “VBOX Verify”.

VBOX Verify will do just that….. It will check the data file is clean and that the run is performed within an accepted “slope” tolerance. What the later means is that it will measure the slope of the road (height data is captured all the way through the run), by ensuring that it remains within a certain % allowed throughout the run.

However…. There’s even more to it than this.

Whilst there is a slope check you can still gain acceleration performance by running on a road ,that whilst still falls within the acceptable slope (downhill for instance), does give the run an advantage. That’s physics! When you’re looking to compare figures that are coming down to 10ths of a second difference…. It can all help to make that difference.

The other area is road surface. Due to the makeup of the asphalt on normal roads you will almost certainly have less tyre drag on a public road, then you will on a proper (not airfield!) drag strip. Drag strip tarmac is a much denser compound than road tarmac and doesn’t absorb water like road tarmac does. This is why when it rains it takes them so long to dry the drag strip track out. What this ultimately means is that there is more tyre drag on the drag strip (along with the glue prep they spray on the strip to aid traction). This will normally cause slower acceleration figures on drag strips and reduced terminal speeds.

This sounds all really anal…. But again, when you’re comparing down to 10ths of a second, it can make an impact.

Context and accuracy is king in my opinion and you need to be as like for like as possible. So be very careful when you compare data you’ve attained against others.

Dragstrip accuracy - surely that’s a give then?
If it’s a proper dragstrip then at least you be assured that the timing slip will be accurate, however, there is more to it than this.

Just because you run on a dragstrip it doesn’t mean your performance data (time and terminal speeds) will not vary between different dragstrips. You also can’t guarantee that each time you run, your car will absolutely run the same times.

Assuming your car is healthy, so much can influence a drag run when you’re hunting those small 10ths of a second.

Preparation of the track can make a difference (grip and drag). Weather conditions can make a difference.

In my opinion the environment and weather can have the biggest impact when comparing data. Some cars may be impacted more than others.

Just don’t take everything literally. It’s not that black and white.

Vehicle Weight
Vehicle weight can also influence acceleration times, as the power to weight maybe different. If your car is fully loaded with the “fat” options, there is every chance that a lighter specced car will perform better. Based on the options available I think the difference in times will be small, but every little counts when you’re getting the magnifying glass out on performance figures.

Again….. Something else to be aware of.

Mine is a full fat version, but I do need to get in on the scales to find out exactly what that means.

Conditions on the day
The ambients were good being in mid teens. The cooler the air the better it should be for turbocharged cars.

Track preparation wasn’t the best. Due to rain the previous day and earlier that morning, together with the cooler air, grip for me was an issue. Something I never experienced a few months ago…. However, I’ve also got more grunt now, so that certainly wouldn’t help with the standing starts. It is what it is though.

There was also quite a strong crosswind. Again that isn’t going to help matters. Although it’s better than a direct headwind!

There were LOADS of cars running. So much that we were queuing out the end of the fire up lane. It was a good 30mins between runs. This means that whatever heat you’ve built up in your tyres will dissipate by the time you get to the start line (less grip), and you also have the added awesome feature of heat soak due to queuing! The OEM intercooler is starting to struggle with a remap on the RS3, so any additional heat build up isn’t going to help matters.

You can only run in the conditions that are apparent on the day though. Such is life.

First run 12.14 @ 114.33mph
I wasn’t expecting today to go well if I’m being honest, as the conditions weren’t the best. This first run gave an indication to how the day was possibly going to pan out.

Grip wasn’t good. Wheelspin at the start together with axle tramping. That isn’t good. More grunt and not enough grip on a standing start.

I also noticed the gearbox appeared to stutter from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. 3rd to 4th was fine.

Second run 12.08 @ 114.63mph
Still had traction problems and gearbox stutters, but at least the time was coming down.

Third run 11.98 @ 113.63mph
This run had a better launch, but still span the fronts wheels up. No axle tramp and the stutters weren’t appearing on the gear changes. The track felt like it was starting to improve (this was just after 2pm).

Image

Positives
I’d be lying if I stated I wasn’t hoping for more, however, that was in relation to the ET’s and I was hoping for an 11.8x. We’re talking about a 10th of a second here and considering the grip issues I had experienced, the 11.9x achieved is a solid measure.

My car clearly has more grunt now than it did before when stock. If we look at my best from the previous stock figures at Santa Pod, to these runs, the differences are marked in both ET’s and terminal speeds:

Stock
12.34 @ 111.25mph; 60ft in 1.83s; 330ft in 5.13; ⅛ in 7.92 @ 88.75

Stage 1
11.98 @ 113.63mph; 60ft in 1.84s; 330ft in 5.02; ⅛ in 7.69 @ 92.89

Taking into account my other two runs from yesterday were seeing terminals @ 114mph, this backs up the dyno after figures with the increased BHP at the top end. The car is quicker down the strip because of this.

At the level of Stage 1 on these cars you’re not going to see massive decreases in times, as the top end BHP isn’t being lifted that much over the stock figures.

Also the extra torque this Stage 1 now has won’t be benefiting the drag runs as much as they benefit the car on the road in normal driving conditions. The mid range will only be utilised through the first gear, where this can impact grip anyway. There is also less load in 1st so the benefit of the mid range is limited. Drag runs are really about the upper rev band.

Negatives
The biggest negative is overall grip on launching. This is probably a combination of the track conditions and my hefty torque in the midrange on that 1st gear pull from a standing start with launch control.

I’m also on the thinner 235 section tyres at the front. Most owners will have the 255’s on the front. This should theoretically aid traction from a launch.

Whilst run stability improved on the third run, I never saw a 60ft in the 1.7’s, which is absolutely possible with these RS3’s. Assuming the rest of the run is clean, it is absolutely possible that every 10th you decrease your 60ft time by, you can double the reduction at the ET. When my car was stock I saw a 1.75s 60ft…. And I’m not the only one.

We’re getting quite anal here and this car is not being modified to be a drag monster…. It’s a road car and is setup as such.

What’s next?
The next dragstrip event is at Shakespeare Raceway this coming weekend. I’m going to try and attend and see if I can get the car in 11.8’s. I’m not going to change anything on the car, but may play with tyre pressures to see if I can stabilize the grip more on launching. Lower pressures normally aid grip, but that will increase the drag and decrease my speed….. So it’s a balancing act.

Apart from this it’s on to Stage 2. Intercooler and remap again! Then hopefully back down to strip to see if this helps my overall performance figures.

Talking of performance figures
What about my VBOX data from these runs!..........

Here is the verified VBOX data from the above quickest drag run at Santa Pod. Remember this is from a drag strip run…… not a road log:


0-60mph in 3.50s
Image

60-100mph in 5.31s
Image

0-100mph in 8.81s
Image

If you wondered how accurate these VBOX’s are…. Look at this VBOX log taken on my quickest run. Pretty close to the official strip timing for a box that costs a few hundred pounds!

Image

Here’s the quickest run on video:


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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by MikeFish » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm

Good stuff Shaun; it's really good to see what changes ot the car actually have on power / performance. The only comment I have would be about the tyre pressures; you mentioned about adjusting tyres ot improve your 1/4mile times which is great if your goal is to get the best 1/4miles times possible with your car but I didn't think that was what you wanted to do here? You talk a lot about consistency of testing but wouldn't adjusting the tyre pressures to improve times skew the actual gains from remaps etc?

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:53 pm

I can see where you're coming from and to a degree you're right, however, I bet tyre pressures fluctuate between cars anyway..... not that many owners check them. Even when I picked my car up new they were quite a bit down from what the book states (obviously not part of the PDI check). I pushed them back up to OEM pressures, so that's what my car is set at currently.

I'll have a play with pressures when I next go down the strip, hopefully this weekend. I will run on stock to begin with and see where the car is. If I change them I'll be upfront about it. :)

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:19 pm

Performance Testing Stage 1 - Round 2
I did say on the last update that I would be attending the next dragstrip event at Shakespeare Raceway… so here we are!

I was adamant that the conditions at Santa Pod last weekend were not the best, and for me, caused issues due to poor grip levels. Like we all say though…. The bullshit stops when the flag drops, so I was eager to try again under better track conditions.

Conditions on the day
The ambients were warmer today than last weekend high teens starting off, which quickly moved to low 20’s.

Track preparation should be better as the weather leading up to today wasn’t that bad. It was at least dry the day before and no rain had fallen overnight.

As soon as I got to the track they were already out prepping it which is always a good sign!

Another good thing (from a run / heat management perspective) is that there were no where near as many runners here today as Santa Pod the week before. Which should mean I can better manage my runs, rather than being dictated by the traffic.

Image

First run 11.99 @ 114.64 60ft 1.87s
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I’m going to start and quote the 60ft in the title. This is very important to me now as you’ll see further on.

Balls….. It’s lighting up the front tyres again and still axle tramping. Car feels really light going up the rest of the track as well.

This is the first run though and I was first on track….. I’m hoping things will improve as the track gets more rubber and heat into it.

I’m going to get straight back on, back to back!

Second run 12.06 @ 114.82 60ft 1.94s
Image

Holy moley…. What happened on that run. Look at that 60ft!

Front grip was atrocious! Still feels like it’s struggling for grip over the rest of the track as well. It’s 4WD…. What’s going on! lol

One more run, but something to try first to improve grip….

Tyre Pressures
I’m adamant this is all about grip and not because my tune hasn’t got the power.

I normally, as a matter of course, pull tyre pressure down on the fronts for drag runs on a Haldex type setup and all round if it’s permanent 4WD. This is assuming I’m having grip problems and I want to try and help with this.

The downside to pulling out tyre pressure is that this normally negatively affects the speeds you attain. This is due to increased tyre drag, with more of the tyre (as it’s effectively flatter) spread on the tarmac.

In my opinion if you’re not having grip issues don’t mess with your tyre pressures. One of the guys running his stock RS3 at the pod last weekend did this. He wasn’t having grip issues, but with him pulling his tyre pressures down it reduced his terminal speeds by a couple of MPH. His ET’s were not really affected, but this is what it normally does.

Checking my pressures I was still running stock levels for 235’s on the front, which was 39psi. I pulled these down to 32psi at the front and left the rears stock. It’s the fronts that are having to cope with all the work in reality.

Third run 11.98 @ 114.86 60ft 1.85s
Image

This is just as bad as Santa Pod…. I just don’t think I’m going to get anywhere today.

At this point I decided to rest the car up and take stock (and cry!).

After just over 30 mins I headed out for the next run.

Fourth run 11.97 @ 116.17 60ft 1.93
Image

The track had been running for just over an hour by now and it’s amazing how quickly a track can evolve as more cars run, increasing track temp and rubber laid down to increase overall grip.

OK, the ET and 60ft were still crap but look how the terminals have picked up. The car felt much better after launching then the previous runs. The strip on the whole was starting to feel quicker and the car was more stable after launching…. That increase in terminals backs that up.

If the car was now achieving that ET with that 60ft and terminal speed, things were looking a lot more positive now. I’ve just got to try and get a better launch in.

Something I noticed was that the inlet temps were very high after each run, so I decided to take the approach of letting the car cool between each run for at least 20mins. In my opinion this isn’t the best thing, as you tend to lose heat from your tyres (grip) and from your downpipe and turbo exhaust housing. It’s really good to ensure your exhaust housing and downpipe are red hot to ensure gas speed (power output) is optimum. Fine line here though as you don’t want heat soak.

I can’t wait to get this intercooler swapped out!

Fifth run 11.87 @ 116.03 60ft 1.87
Image

We’re in the 11.8’s!!!! Still maintaining terminals but still struggling off the line.

At this stage I also took another 2psi out of the fronts. We’re now down to 30psi at the fronts, whilst the rears are still stock pressures.

Sixth run 11.80 @ 116.10 60ft 1.80
Image

Boom!! 11.80 dead!!

To be precise it was 11.80045. That’s 4/10,000ths of a second away from an 11.7!!! That is crazily close.

Much better 60ft this time, but I know there is more left in the car on launching. The rest of the run felt proper solid.

It’s worth pointing out that even with this time the fronts are still spinning up on launch and the front is axle tramping. It’s mental!

I got greedy here and did a back to back run straight after.

Seventh run 11.86 @ 115.36 60ft 1.78
Image

Triple balls!!!!

I finally bust into the 1.7’s 60ft, but got a worse ET and trap speed. That’s exactly what happens when you get heat soak - you lose power!!!! Surely had that launch been without heat soak, I think I’d be staring at an 11.7x timing slip now! Damn…… but as I like to say, it does it when it does it.

Time for a rest (for the car and me!) looking to running again after lunch.

Eighth run 12.05 @ 115.30 60ft 1.95
Image

This run was some 1.5hrs since the last run, and look at how quickly the track can change again!

These were the worst grip levels I had experienced all day up the strip. I’m not over exaggerating here, but the tyres were squealing all the way through 1st, 2nd and 3rd. That’s crazy.

Look at that 60ft! Ha

Ninth run 12.03 @ 115.28 60ft 1.91
Image

The track had clearly taken a turn for the worse during the afternoon.

That’s it…. I’m done for today!

Positives
It’s amazing how better track conditions can change the times. OK it’s not when you think about it, but there has been a marked improvement seen even at the same level of tune. A point probably worth underlining here, this car has not seen any further changes since the last runs at Santa Pod. It’s in the same state of tune.

To put down an 11.80s quarter is brilliant. Based on what I know this is the quickest official drag strip time for a Stage 1 RS3 on stock tyres, full fat weight and pump fuel in the UK. Also I managed to do 3 x 11.8x passes on the same day.

Based on the testing done today I’m as confident as I can be that the car, even at this level of tune, has an 11.7x drag strip pass in it.

The other element I’m really happy with is the trap speeds. Hitting 116+ at the quarter, especially with 10psi taken out of the front tyres, is impressive. It backs up the BHP claims from my dyno plots in my opinion.

The torque increases seen on my dyno plot (+100ftlb over the stock run on my car) is real in my opinion, which is why the stock launch control strategy is causing me ultimate grip issues on launch. Too much sauce on launch.

Let’s see where we are now versus the stock drag runs I did:

Stock
12.34 @ 111.25mph; 60ft in 1.83s; 330ft in 5.13; ⅛ in 7.92 @ 88.75

Stage 1
11.80 @ 116.10mph; 60ft in 1.80s; 330ft in 4.93; ⅛ in 7.57 @ 92.74

Negatives
It’s easy to get side tracked by focussing on these performance times, but this car is for the road and that is what’s most important to me. I don’t launch the car on the road, I drive it through the gears. The drag figures do not highlight how quick and driveable this car is on the road.

Grip is ultimately my current enemy on the strip at the moment. There are a number of options I will investigate, focussed on what changes can be made to the launch strategy (reducing boost).

I could also look at increasing mechanical grip….. Fitting different tyres and/or the wider 255’s on the front. To be honest I would rather not put 255’s on the front.

One thing I will look at is geometry. Stock factory geometry is normally quite loose, so I’ll get the car on the alignment rig and tighten that up if needed.

The last but probably the easiest, is to start running the car at Santa Pods Peak Performance days. This is when they heavily prep the track, and continue to keep that up through the day. This ensures the strip is at it’s most grippiest. The downside is that these days are £60, as opposed to the normal £25. But since this doesn’t mean I need to change anything else, and it’s only affecting the drag strip outcome (potentially), it does kind of make sense to at least try this route.

I’m not going to bother messing around with anything for the next few weeks, it’s Stage 2 testing after all during early October.

VBOX Data
I can’t stress this enough…. These are figures from the drag strip run, not for road runs.

As per the drag times, the other areas of acceleration also saw a marked improvement from the Santa Pod runs. Better track conditions / grip is good thing!

These are taken from the quickest quarter run logs:

0-60mph in 3.40s
Image

60-100mph in 5.08s
Image

0-100mph in 8.49s
Image

Looking back at what was achieved at Santa Pod, these figures have been improved upon as follows:

0-60 0.1s quicker
60-100 0.23s quicker
0-100 0 0.32s quicker

Personally, I would expect the measures / results to be even quicker on the public highway.

The data logged via VBOX is very informative, way beyond just giving performance figures. One thing you can look at is the amount of g’s the car is pulling, which can allude to drop off’s in power / traction.

I’m noticing that the 1st to 2nd gear change is quite harsh and the box appears to stutter when doing a fully loaded launch run. Together with the wheelspin and axle tramping I get, this can be seen on the g’s plotted.

Let’s look at the VBOX quarter mile log associated to the quickest drag run achieved:

Image

I’ve highlighted five areas from left to right on the g plot.

The 1st from the left is showing lack of traction initially, which will be a combination of wheelspin and the front axle tramping. It doesn’t gain full traction until around 16mph.

The 2nd from the left is showing the fairly substantial 1st to 2nd gearbox shift stutter. I’ve seen this on stock car logs, but I think this is being amplified by the Stage 1 remap.

A DSG remap may help certainly for the 2nd issue.

Whilst not affecting the run in reality the 3rd, 4th and 5th areas have been highlighted as these show the 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th and finally 4th to 5th gear changes.

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by MikeFish » Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:55 pm

What brand of tyres are you running at the moment?

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by fagin » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:56 pm

MikeFish wrote:What brand of tyres are you running at the moment?
Whatever the stock ones are.... Pirelli I think.

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Re: RS3 8V: One step at a time

Post by MikeFish » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:27 pm

A set of Michelins would definitely help you put that power down. Whilst I know you might not want to do that yet it could help find out what the real potential of the stage 1 mods. I think we have already established that the pirellis are counter acting against a lot of the power here as they have reached their limit of grip (arguably they were already out of their depth with standard power).

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