Real World Gains

[t_urbo]

Following the discussion's on the DMS thread's regarding what bhp was achievable i want to find out what are the real world gains to had with the RS4 Engine?
I have a vested interest in the cars i own and i joined this forum primeraly to find out what engine mod's were around and what gains they were getting. I was due to have DMS upgrade my ECU at the group buy but for me they were not achieving the gains i was expecting so i decided not to have it done, now thats not to say they are not achieving what was posted at other times.
It seems there are very few tuners able to gain any additional HP from this engine through remaps alone.
ABT Sportline are a race-tuning company that specialise in Audi's, they race in the DTS championships and are currently leading. Heres what they say to an ECU upgrade for the RS4.

Why does Abt not offer chip tuning for induction engines?

Chip tuning alone does not bring any considerable power advantages for Otto-induction engines (engines without turbocharger). There are simple explanations for this: An Otto-engine requires a defined fuel-air mixture for combustion. No influence by means of the ECU can be taken on the air flow and thus the aerator proportion in the mixture. A possible alteration of fuel quantity therefore only brings about a noticeable increase in performance if a mechanical optimization is carried out at the same time (e.g. air intake, camshaft, pistons, valves, etc.)

Ok so thats just one company's opinion right, wrong. As a comparison Dinancars in the US build BMW race engines, they are a tuning company and they don't offer ECU upgrades on the M3 or M5. What they do offer is, New throttle bodies but no remap alone, and the gains on a 500hp engine are;-
Peak Horsepower Gain: 13 @ 8100 rpm
Peak Torque Gain: 8 lb-ft @ 8100 rpm

Now there's been alot of talk about dyno plots not meaning much and its all about The Butt Dyno. So is this what your Butt's telling You?

This is from http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9

I believe that the rather large horsepower gains that are being published by some, particularly with regard to "power chips", are the result of tuning the cars back to the stock mixture and ignition timing settings, essentially leaning-out the air/fuel mixture and advancing the timing to compensate for the rich mixture and retarded timing experienced on the dyno. It appears to me that this "increase" in power is then included in whatever gains were actually achieved (if any). In reality, these supposed gains are nothing more than a correction for the testing conditions, resulting in an exaggerated performance claim. In addition, many "power chips" create the perception of an increase in power/acceleration as the re-programming will often dramatically increase the speed of the throttle opening on the drive by wire cars, making the engine feel more powerful

Would be good if some tuners could have their input.

[SR71]

t_urbo,

I made my post in the DMS thread (http://www.rs246.com/index.php?name=PNp ... 5&start=25) on the basis of your post above which was originally posted to that thread.

Funny how my conclusions (independently arrived at I might add) are close to what Dinan are saying...

There is nothing clever (in my opinion) about leaning out a mixture back towards stoichiometric (and advancing the ignition as a result) in order to generate more power.

That is just basic chemistry.

What is clever is the following (taken from the same Dinan site):

Now that engine control systems have advanced so dramatically, manufacturers can better manage conditions that might otherwise result in engine failure and they can produce more power per cc than ever before. While maximum horsepower has increased, so too has the variability of power output. This is because the engine control systems save the engine from failure by backing off power when conditions are less than ideal. This variability comes from the control system striving to extract whatever power is available, under a given set of conditions.

i.e., Power is sacrificed for reliability/longevity - a better overall package.

I like the following admission:

And in the case of performance engine management software for later model cars, we seem to be the only BMW tuner that has come to grips with the fact that there is simply no horsepower to be gained from engine management tuning alone.

It concurs with my suspicion that ECU mapping these days is so complicated, you've got to be a true guru to extract any more power from a NA engine over and above what the designer has done.

If you could, the designers would have, or alternatively, you've compromised the design in another aspect somehow.

For example, in turbo-charged cars you typically adjust the boost....at the expense of your turbo's life.

Ultimately I might go for increased power but I reckon I'm far more likely to go for MTM's supercharged package rather than a few additional horses via an ECU map.

If I'm going to blow the ****** up I want to do it big style.



Still I'll submit to the tuner's superior knowledge if they contest the above crude paraphrase...

[sykotoy]

My pal in queensland just had dms put on and dynoed it before and after, Xtra 10kW @ the wheels post software whats that in bhp?

[t_urbo]

My pal in queensland just had dms put on and dynoed it before and after, Xtra 10kW @ the wheels post software whats that in bhp?

13.6 BHP

[simple1]

and what does 13.6 bhp equate to in flywheel figures? And can you please post modified threads in the correct forum.. which is where this is going.

[t_urbo]

and what does 13.6 bhp equate to in flywheel figures? And can you please post modified threads in the correct forum.. which is where this is going.

16.19 BHP

[W8PMC]

Following the discussion's on the DMS thread's regarding what bhp was achievable i want to find out what are the real world gains to had with the RS4 Engine?
I have a vested interest in the cars i own and i joined this forum primeraly to find out what engine mod's were around and what gains they were getting. I was due to have DMS upgrade my ECU at the group buy but for me they were not achieving the gains i was expecting so i decided not to have it done, now thats not to say they are not achieving what was posted at other times.
It seems there are very few tuners able to gain any additional HP from this engine through remaps alone.
ABT Sportline are a race-tuning company that specialise in Audi's, they race in the DTS championships and are currently leading. Heres what they say to an ECU upgrade for the RS4.

Why does Abt not offer chip tuning for induction engines?

Chip tuning alone does not bring any considerable power advantages for Otto-induction engines (engines without turbocharger). There are simple explanations for this: An Otto-engine requires a defined fuel-air mixture for combustion. No influence by means of the ECU can be taken on the air flow and thus the aerator proportion in the mixture. A possible alteration of fuel quantity therefore only brings about a noticeable increase in performance if a mechanical optimization is carried out at the same time (e.g. air intake, camshaft, pistons, valves, etc.)

Ok so thats just one company's opinion right, wrong. As a comparison Dinancars in the US build BMW race engines, they are a tuning company and they don't offer ECU upgrades on the M3 or M5. What they do offer is, New throttle bodies but no remap alone, and the gains on a 500hp engine are;-
Peak Horsepower Gain: 13 @ 8100 rpm
Peak Torque Gain: 8 lb-ft @ 8100 rpm

Now there's been alot of talk about dyno plots not meaning much and its all about The Butt Dyno. So is this what your Butt's telling You?

This is from http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9

I believe that the rather large horsepower gains that are being published by some, particularly with regard to "power chips", are the result of tuning the cars back to the stock mixture and ignition timing settings, essentially leaning-out the air/fuel mixture and advancing the timing to compensate for the rich mixture and retarded timing experienced on the dyno. It appears to me that this "increase" in power is then included in whatever gains were actually achieved (if any). In reality, these supposed gains are nothing more than a correction for the testing conditions, resulting in an exaggerated performance claim. In addition, many "power chips" create the perception of an increase in power/acceleration as the re-programming will often dramatically increase the speed of the throttle opening on the drive by wire cars, making the engine feel more powerful

Would be good if some tuners could have their input.

Lee, Lee, Lee, you really need to move on & perhaps have a drink or ten. Can this subject really be done to death any more than it has already??

No idea on ABT as they're not a company i've ever really investigated due to my lack of interest in them (& the few negative tales i've heard about them in the UK), however Dinan is a company i've spent lots of time in discussions with (this is gonna bite you) & the biggest reason quoted by them is they can't get any measurable gains on US M5's due to the complex mapping alterations made to US M5's by BMW. The US M5 has crippled Launch Control, is fitted with some nasty charcoal filters (removing these alone gives a 5-7BHP increase) & some strange lines of code.

In fact & i hate to quote DMS, but the 1st time they went stateside, they could only manage an additional 12BHP on top of the Charcoal Filter removal, which in itself was about 20BHP less than they were getting from UK & European M5's (E60's). After DMS cracked this code, they went back & now manage the same gains on US cars that they get in UK cars. In the US, the tuner of choice for BMW appears to be AA (something).

Given Dinan's race heritage which in the US is strong, they decided to concentrate on revising the Differentials & have launched a couple of versions (think the last was 3.1.1 & now they have 3.1.2). Revised Diffs is not something many tuners or customers in the UK entertain. I nearly went for the revised Diff & would have been the only customer in the UK, but a few days before i was about to order, one went bang in spectacular fashion in Florida & i then decided i'd not fancy that same fait over here, being thousands of miles away as their Warranty would be almost worthless to me.

For me, i've so not interested in achieving the highest possible gains, as this would no doubt <beep> the car very quickly, i want what i believe are usable & safe gains. As above perhaps the DMS (& other maps) do take the edge of the cars longevity & perhaps it is not rocket science, but the butt dyno is the one i go by & it's now not only my word you need to take for this as regards DMS, as their customer bank is increasing.

Be the gains of any tuner be 10/15/20/25/30/35 or 40BHP, this is still an improvement & it's how this is translated to overall performance on the road & to that specific car that's the most important, NOT the headline figure. I guess if anyone went for the maximum then the longevity & day to day usability of the car would be very questionable.

Ps. I've found a couple of DMS B7 RS4's over on PistonHeads & in August it looks as though we'll have 2 DMS B7 RS4's & 1 Stock B7 RS4, so even the doubters should get some factual information, although i'm afraid to say VMAX events do not include dynos.

[t_urbo]

Paul,
Whats the point of moving on when there is so much interest in the tuning abilities or not as it may be of the cars we drive.
I for one am very interested in what gains can be had with these cars.

Just because you may have heard a few negative comments about ABT does not mean there a bunch of crack heads. Seems to me that they know their engines somewhat.

The gains DMS have applied to your car are the absolute maximum they can get. They struggled to get much of an improvement on S4INT and Brownies Cars, so it looks like it may well <beep> your car very quickly as you rightly point out, that said i dont want to argue over what DMS can or cannot do.Thats just my opinion.

You being in discussions with Dinan isnt going to bite me, i welcome your views and the experiences you have had with them as it adds interest to the thread and is something we can all discuss further.

[W8PMC]

29BHP on one of those cars is certainly "much of an improvement" & both claim they feel far better (dyno plots or not). We don't know the exact output of my car, as it's never been on a dyno, so how can you assume anything?? My car may in fact be the lowest of the bunch but even if that is the case, my on road findings are more than enough to satisfy me.

More gains could be had (any tuner could get more) & if you'd read my post/s correctly (perhaps that's the problem) i stated that the gains (any gains) ought to be considered as the max allowable without comprimising the overall longevity of the engine/car. Why would said tuner line themselves up with a huge warranty claim & no doubt the end of their business by tuning any car with a view to retarding it quickly as you say.

Lee, i'm only moving from disscusions specific about said tuner. Their is currently more than enough info on them on this forum & i can't add any value either way, as my findings & opinions are well known & as are those of their other customers. Perhaps you feel their is more you can add to that particular debate, but the consensus seems to indicate the opposite.

[t_urbo]

I think all but mr T urbo, and you really need to change your name, as you no longer own one obviously due to not being a heavy hitter, has lost the plot and the will to live or look at the forum any longer. So as it is now not informative or productive, the thread will be locked. As will any further threads flaming DMS.

Thanks Simple1.
I do have a couple of Diesel T_urbo's so can i keep my name on that basis?

[Dippy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the RS4 engine an already tuned version of the S4 engine? If so any further tuning will be a matter of diminishing returns, which of course is not that great anyway for an NA engine without modfying the internals.

[W8PMC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the RS4 engine an already tuned version of the S4 engine? If so any further tuning will be a matter of diminishing returns, which of course is not that great anyway for an NA engine without modfying the internals.

Far from being a technical expert, i'm sure the simple answer is NO.

The RS4 engine is pretty much all new & is the basica negine that's going in the new R8, albeit the R8 engine has a dry sump etc.

The S4 engine is the same basic 4.2 V8 that before now, Audi had implanted in cars dating back to the previous version of the A8 etc.