APR MTM GIAC AMS Chip Shootout Info

[Joules]

I'm not sure I agree regarding being ripped off. It takes a reasonable amount of time to build a map for the Car at AmD and for the increase performance £850 is well worth it.

£850 + VAT

These are interesting comments all, I don't want to start a slanging match either. I have spoken at length with staff at AMD and find them very helpful and knowledgeable.

In any case if you take the brand new Audi ECU with ABT (Audi Approved Map this costs £1600 on its own) for £850 ish from the US.. how can you say that the AMD mapping at £1K is good value???

You may well be paying for expertise and the use of the RR. They will start with a base map then tweak ...does this constitute good value do your sums and estimate £/hr labour.

I am well aware of the benefits of custom mapping having run a STiV which was mapped by Steve Simpson (one of the best mappers in the country) The latter taking 3 hours on the road covering 120+miles. In stage 1 form there is a large amount of tolerance on the AUDI with the STiV map I had the boundaries were much closer.


In summary I do not have copious amounts of money with which to tune my Audi. As such I want to get quality and good value performance improvements. Most customer testimonials of those with AMD tuned Audi’s strongly underline a professional service and a quality product. However this is a buyers market and things move quickly. i.e. We can buy worldwide and don’t have to be dictated to by UK retailers … check out ECS or APR US and compare prices. Regards technology well we will have to wait and see because the possible versatility of the REVO product I don’t believe is currently matched by other tuners. I look forward to RR details comparing the REVO, APR, AMD, MTM, GIAC chips in the future. In the meantime we should make informed choices to the best of our ability.

Please take none of my remarks personally I mean no disrespect to any party discussed.

Joules

Anyway, my point being why is there such a huge gap between the UK and US in terms of tuning costs??

[tanoga]

Anyway, my point being why is there such a huge gap between the UK and US in terms of tuning costs??

Same reasons as petrol and house prices I suppose, cost of living [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Karl

[Joules]

Same reasons as petrol and house prices I suppose, cost of living [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Karl

Yeah... but we as consumers can buy car components from overseas. We should make more noise or club together to make bulk purchases. I mean FORGE BPV's if you take VAT into account are cheaper in the US??

Joules (Anyway I'm just moaning ... it's helpful to get it off your chest sometimes)

[jeffw]

In any case if you take the brand new Audi ECU with ABT (Audi Approved Map this costs £1600 on its own) for £850 ish from the US.. how can you say that the AMD mapping at £1K is good value???

1. I don't need a brand new ECU
2. I don't care what the price is in the US.....I don't live there.
3. It's my money and if I think it's good value then that's up to me isn't it.

If you want to get something else fine, I'll be interested to see your RR results.

At the end of the day you pays your money and takes your chances.

[Andiroo]

Youre right Phil no tuner wars on here, just factual debate with a technical bias that will ensure everyone is happy [img]images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

My first concern is the fact re your ECU - I will take this up with AmD (in my normal polite polite manner [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) and let everyone know the response. This does not sound like quality work [img]images/graemlins/033102bad_1_prv.gif[/img]

Dunc, sorry mate, should have been clearer on the Revo problems. I know Ben has had his problem sorted, but it is well known (by their own admission on Tyresmoke) that Inigo and Mo-S3 have detonation on various settings/conditions. I am not slagging off APR or Revo, but my car will not go to a company which lets you drive away with detonation (if indeed their analysis is correct). Detonation is not and should not be something you live with - it kills engines, no matter how slight [img]images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Joules, this is where a RR comes into it's own. Detonation can be witnessed and indeed cured - ie the specific not generic solution.

Have to agree that these guys seem to know what they are doing, up to a point. But until somebody can explain to me why people seem happy when there is supposed detonation effects, then I will keeping away for now at least. Then there's the figures of 1.5bar boost mentioned for the S3 - is this sensible with no other mods?

Price wise, I think peace of mind does cost a few quid [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Like I said, no war, just facts..... and it would be really nice to get some S3/S4 RR torque plots from Revo to put in the other post [img]images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] anyone ?

Andiroo

[tanoga]

Well this "which chip topic" always opens up a good debate with a lot of opinions(which are like ar$e holes, everybody has got one) [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

What I know is I have the MTM 458 chip and I am well pleased with it. Was it value for money? Well that depends on what you perceive as value for money. From my point of view every time I drive the car I am HAPPY. Therefore, from my point of view, I get value for money.
I know many other people are just as happy with the other chip upgrades on the market.
In the end I believe all the tuners basically offer the same, they make your car go quicker by a given amount at a given cost for a given amount of reliability. You pays ya money you takes ya choice.

The Revo upgrade that is NEARLY available is a very interesting bit of kit. Standard Audi chip that is mode switchable [img]images/graemlins/clap.gif[/img] It was not on the market when I upgraded so was not an option.
As for PhilT getting a free upgrade, so what, good luck to him he is being the guinea pig and helping develop the product and should be able to express his opinion on the board without any suspicion. At the end of the day Phil will not post good results on this board if the Revo route turns out to be a lemon.

Respect to all chips, whether they be BK, KFC or McDs

Karl

[wazza]

whether they be BK, KFC or McDs

nah, I prefer the fish shop variety, but that's just my opinion [img]images/graemlins/roflmao.gif[/img]

[Bushy]

A few initial thoughts i have while reading this thread;

I agree with Andy, there have been af ew people who have ha APR/Revo problems, fried ECU I seem to remember from one guy, and Andy mentions a few.

Lets be honest if there are a few problems or failures we are not going to be told it was the remap/chip we are going to be told it was dump valves or something!

AmD/MTM remap costs, surely alot of the initial costs of breaking the Audi codes and designing the base remap have a bearing on the price they charge for what appears to be 5 - 7 hours work

I believe that MTM and AmD both solder solutions onto the exisitng boards to bet the ECU to accept the new codes

OK, new Revo technology, well my understanding is this, please correct me if i am wrong as do not pretend to understand correctly. The ECU chip is a powerful chip and is alledgedly only using a proportion of its power to run our cars, tuners such as AmD and MTM use an additional chip to allow data and their remap to alter the characturistics of our engines performance.

Where Revo keep the data all on the original chip I would imagine is quite hard and my understanding is that you effectively install a virus onto the ECU, this means that if parameter x looks for a value subject to y it looks in box z, the virus diverts traffic from box z and gives it another value that it has placed in some spare section of the chips memory.

Hence modifying the cars performance

Is anything that has been given a dose of virus reliable, time will tell!

And I would like someone to explain to me in other words how can they rema the OEM ECU other than this

and as Andy says lets try keep it factual

Cheers

[DuncS3]

Have to agree that these guys seem to know what they are doing, up to a point. But until somebody can explain to me why people seem happy when there is supposed detonation effects, then I will keeping away for now at least. Then there's the figures of 1.5bar boost mentioned for the S3 - is this sensible with no other mods?

If my car was detonating, dont worry I would not be happy at all! no blooming way!

I cannot or will not fault the use of a rolling road by AMD - its a great add on

Regarding 1.5 bar of boost - AMD run 1.7 and one guys car spiked at 1.9 on a RR with the AMD remap - MTM alledgedly 1.8/1.9. Really though I cannot comment on how long those ranges last - we need a RR day for Haldex

REVO/APR have always been pretty easy on the boost.

I would love to get my car on a RR, but the last RR meet, the RR couldnt handle the Haldex on the two S3s there, so I think we are still on the lookout...

Tuner wars [img]images/graemlins/rocketwhore.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/flamethrower.gif[/img]- its all very much like the Commodore vs Spectrum days!

Dunc [img]images/graemlins/s3addict.gif[/img]

[Andiroo]

Hey Dunc, any chance you could get Revo to comment as to whether detonation is a known problem to them? - again it would help to get the actual facts from the designers [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

You're right about the boost figures, but they are only initial overboost, whereas I'm led to believe from all the Revo posts that 1.5bar is actual boost that is held throughout, which IMHO is not good. Be good to get Revo to comment on this as well [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

At last, a chip debate with some sensible posts, must be a first [img]images/graemlins/jump_clap.gif[/img]

Andiroo

[Bushy]

OK, excuse my ignorance but if one tuner uses 1.4bar and one uses say 1.7 bar

The actual day to day running on the cars have minimal difference so how to the lower boost tuners get the same get up and go?

Am i correct in thinking by advancing the timing then using more fuel to cool the pistons?

Surely this will not only cost more to run but puts more stress on the engine?????

[DuncS3]

..well from an experience point of view...

AMD on S3 big kick up the arse, seemed quicker 0-60 than my APR - but when we raced on very long high speed straights, neither car could pull away from the other. AMD tailed off about 5.5K rpm, whereas APR kep pulling to 6.5-7 (often hit the rev limiter in 4th sort of thing).

So, I guess the lower boost guys do a sort of duracell thing and keep pulling when the AMD guy is changing gear - making them comparitive in terms of overall performance (but not in the way they drive)

Of course APR must have used more advanced timing - because they had the technology to do it - ie you must always use Optimax, but if you cant get it you must switch to normal fuel settings - such as seen in Sabaru tuning and in standard TVRs - different remaps for different fuels...

Dunc [img]images/graemlins/s3addict.gif[/img]

[Thorney]

There is no way you will ever get real independant debate on these matters as people will alwys defend their own choice and as its down to personal preference there is no harm in that. [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I am genuinely looking to re-chip my car and as such I am in the fortunate position of a choice (even if I can't compete with US prices [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). I am sure that any testimonial will be valid and accurate with no intention to deceive, however I think it reasonable that I be allowed to make my own mind up on these testimonials based upon the fact that whether that person actually paid for the upgrade or not. I'm not suggesting anyone is hiding/marketing something in an underhand manner, just that its nice to clear on these things [img]images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Techincally I think the Revo method of tuning is the way forward but until it is tried, tested and installed without problem, over and over again then I'm not going to trust it - period. My interest in Sportec is brought about by the fact that their product has been around for a long time with extensive good reports. However as its not been fully available in the UK until now its relatively new here - hence my questions about it.

I am keen to learn so I make an informed (it will never be 'right') choice.

[Joules]

But please don't critise my choices because at the end of the day they are F*ck all to do with you. [img]images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

This is a lively debate...

Sorry Jeff it is not my intension to criticise your choice and I apologise if this is the way it has appeared. I am simply raising questions related to value that maybe beneficial to you and others.



The debate -

I think the RR is a must after any ECU upgrade. Some have already mentioned DET and this is a very serious issue, speaking as someone who ran a DET ridden STiV import designed for 100 RON fuel.

Q- Is anyone using additional knock sensors devices on their Audi's?

Some maps maybe very spiky to give high torque peaks. I personally would be uncomfortable to say the least if I saw 1.4 Bar+ peak. I would much rather see 1.1Bar peak and held at 1.0Bar. Of course Boost is not everything and fuelling and timing are equally important hence the AMD 'custom' mapping comes into its own.

As regards what REVO are doing .. I'm not sure if the virus idea is intended to be off-putting but if it is everyone who has used a firmware upgrade on eg CDROMS, DVD Players etc etc... maybe infecting them. Obviously no.. they are simply in most cases flashing the EMROM chip with amended or new code.

A more interesting question is whether or not the resolution is different on the soldered to ECUchip or the REVO upgrade. .... not sure??
That said IMHO I believe most reputable Stage 1 maps to be a fair bit off the max for the engine. This is only my belief and I am sure there maybe some unscrupulous tuners who are willing to sacrifice safety for a quick buzz or should I say boost....

So the debate will continue

[wazza]

I think the RR is a must after any ECU upgrade.

Yes, agreed, but DURING the upgrade is the best possible, as the 'tuners' can match to the individual car's characteristics.