Toluene

[Dippy]

Dippy gave us all a lecture ( in a nice way ) about additives and their effects some time last year. I keep thinking I should use plastic gloves with the Millers, or is that OTT ??

LOL [img]images/graemlins/roflmao.gif[/img]

Seriously, you need to do what you feel comfortable with. Life is full of dangers and we each need to analyse our risks and decide what we are willing to accept. Unfortunately most people seem unwilling to accept that this is their own responsibility and want other people to define what is safe (I could lecture you on this subject too [img]images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).

Remember there was a time when people thought it was safe to smoke and to use asbestos in buildings.

Currently people think it is safe to hold a microwave transmitter a few centimetres from their brains.

If you know something is dangerous, what does it hurt to at least limit your exposure to it.

I don't wear gloves when pouring my Millers but I am careful and I do turn my head away.

But I wouldn't blame you at all for wearing gloves yourself, especially as most filling stations provide them for diesel.

Cheers
Dave (the lecturer)

[Dippy]

Hang on - there was supposed to be a sense of humour there.

And who's saying I wasn't laughing? [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/biggrin2.gif[/img]

Didn't mean to come across in a kinda adversarial way Dave. [img]images/graemlins/stormTrooper.gif[/img]

I just wanted to see if we could get this subject explored more fully than just dismissing it as an apparently hairbrained idea.

Aparently, in the USA the octane of the fuel is higher than in the UK. US fuel is 92 Octane but I'm not sure how this relates to RON because I'm not sure of the relationship between RON and Octane. In France Super is 98 RON - here Superplus is 97 RON - so basically Uk fuel is not particularly high quality. So what are the benefits of using say 100 RON fuel versus the real risks? On the face of it I would have thought that better quality fuel would have a beneficial effect and the engine would run smoother.

Anyone know for sure?

Sorry then, I misjudged the tone of your post [img]images/graemlins/062802beat_prv.gif[/img]

I'm not dismissing it, just warning you to be careful.

RON is 'research octane number' which is derived using an engine which efferctively was defined by the petrochemical industry.

MON is 'motor (industry) octane number.

The US grades it's gas with (RON+MON)/2. However since you don't know the RON and MON of the gas in the first place, it is not totally simple to compare US grades with Euro grades.

However like us the US have different grades of gas. IIRC they have a couple of grades which are about 95 RON and below. However their 92 grade fuel is about the same as 97 RON, and they also have 93 grade in places which is a bit higher than 98 RON I think. Of course in the US you can also get higher octane gas for racing.

And that's my point. Race cars use high octane fuel, but the engines don't last as long as road cars. F1 engines last for a single race (for Ferrari at least).

Audi designed your car for 98 RON fuel. Maybe you can use 100 RON and it'll be OK, maybe not. I don't know for sure. However I do know that you don't get something for nothing. If you burn 100 RON in your car then the fuel will burn hotter and the stresses will be higher (of course - it's the increase in torque that you're after).

This means that your engine won't last as long, but how long I don't know.

Doing 0-60's at a drag strip puts extra stress on the transmission. Some will last, some will give up. You know what happened to yours.

P.S. Higher octane is NOT equivalent to better quality. Strictly speaking it's lower quality as your engine was designed for 98 RON. [img]images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Time for bed [img]images/graemlins/062802drink_prv.gif[/img]

[rs4steve]

got some in my shed,i used to run it about 2 years ago in 1 of my cossies excellent performance expensive to buy

i only use it know to make bonfires in the rain seriously im not taking the piss

the only problem i had was the thickening of the fuel massive flames on overrun melted 2 cars front bumpers on track you certainly dont need a flamer kit [img]images/graemlins/FIREdevil.gif[/img]

sorry to sound like a know it all its just what ive experience in my years of madness [img]images/graemlins/flamethrower.gif[/img]

[Kramrs2]

The octane number has nothing to relate to temperature or energy in the combustion chamber.
The octane number is used to define how strong a fuel resists before pre-ignite due to high pressure and/or high temperature. The problem with Toluene is that it has more calories per g than regular gasoline. In theory, if you run 100% toluene you will run richer than normal, but nothing to relate to octane. The problem is that the engine is not tuned to use full benefits of use toluene and toluene is harmful for humans and for silicon and rubber hoses 
We use alcohol in Brazil (Germany is studying the use of mixture of alcohol in the regular gasoline like we have here due to ambient enforcements) and it is 112 octane equivalent, but it is a lot colder than gasoline and it is much less harmer to humans.
Fuels with better octane index are less prone to detonation and then more ignition advance and/or more boost is allowed. In normally aspirated cars, more static compression could be used. Alcohol has fewer calories per g than gasoline, but at the same engine it could generate more power, the balance is positive (due to more ignition advance, more static compression, and more boost).

More octanes are always ALWAYS a good thing. The problems are the others properties of a specific fuel (toxicity, volatility and calorie).

Regards



PS: Racing engines doesn’t last too much due to absurd ignition advance, high static compression and extended velocity of the moving masses (XX.000rpm redline).

[Joules]

CLC rating displayed on the US pumps as CLC RON is usually 4 points lower than RON. I asked some of the tuners there when checking on US mapped ecu compatibility.


And there is this link if you wanted more info ...

http://www.type2.com/bartnik/octane.htm

Joules

[Dippy]

The octane number has nothing to relate to temperature or energy in the combustion chamber...

More octanes are always ALWAYS a good thing.

Thank you for your comments. However I was trying to keep my explanation to Joshie simple.

Of course I know that octane is purely used as a measure of the anti-knocking property of fuel, and that this is a good thing for engines. However I was trying to convey the warning that there are different ways in which to increase the octane of road car fuel, and just pouring pure toluene into the tank is one of the riskier ones.

My comment about a higher octane fuel being more explosive and probably increasing combustion temperature was an over-simplification. I was of course referring more to the higher ignition temperature and burn rate. Hence I have to disagree with your last comment above.

As you know, each engine has its own limits, and if fuel with a too high octane is used, then the slower combustion can result in the charge still burning at high pressure when the exhaust valves open. RS4Steve has already stated what the consequences of this are.

So back to my original comment to Joshie (which was partly serious and partly amusing): If he got too much toluene in the fuel and started to get burning fuel into the exhaust manifolds, then I'm sure you agree that damage to the exhaust valves and seats would begin, and ultimately the lifetime of the cylinders, turbos and cats would be compromised.

[Kramrs2]

Hi Dippy,

That was what I’m saying! [img]images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Octane is a GOOD thing, but toluene is not the better way to go to increase the octanes of your fuel. Alcohol is good here, but in Europe I think 30% of alcohol will be the limit due to volatility problems below 10ºC. [img]images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Here is always hot and we could use 100% alcohol.
Methanol is another option, but with a much worse wealth problem. Its like lead. It’s a good think to the engine, but horrible to the environment.
Nothing is perfect; alcohol is almost [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img](what about running 2,3bar of boost without fear) [img]images/graemlins/jump3.gif[/img]


Regards
Mark

[dog]

It has a flash point of 4 degrees and has a 'funny' effect on female hormones apparently........

Simon

I have to get some [img]images/graemlins/sloppy.gif[/img]

[toasty]

I asked my mate lastnight and he seemed to think it wouldn't be that effective...... however this morning he sent me this email:

I think your mate is on to something with this toluene/benzene business. I
found that its all to do with radicals and by taking this idea I've got some
of my own which MAY give him better results at possibly a cheaper price. I
don't know if your seeing him tomorrow but I'll give you a ring tonight so
you can let him know or email him or whatever. Its straightforward once you
know what EXACTLY happens in the engine in terms of chemistry.
Unfortunately I wasn't thinking along those lines last night.

So I may have some info for you tomorrow.
-Dan

[Joshie]

It'll be interesting what he reckons.

[SJS]

Guys,

As it was probably me that started this avenue in the S4 forum, i thought i would add my 2 cents worth.

Note. I have only experienced Toluene being added to normal 95RON unleaded. Have not seen it done with 98.

A few friends have the 1.8T engine including myself and regularly add a mixture of Toluene/Diesel/ATF. As per the sample mixture in following thread.
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/gasoline-octane.html

To an empty tank they added about 1 gallon of this mixture and 13 gallons of 95 unleaded. They did the maths at the time and from memory that brings the octane up to over 97.

They have only good things to say about it, smoother power delivery, better high end torque, ADV ignition timing. As you would expect.

Personally i havent tried it as the Super unleaded / unleaded price difference has closed up quite a bit over in N.I. and it is just as cheap to fill up with Super. However if you were to try adding this to Optimax RON98, you should expect to get a true 100RON fuel. This would/should increase performance.

It has been said that the ECU has been tuned for 98RON on the S4 and a increase wont better performance. I am not so sure, the ECU is adaptive both ways.

Downsides - There is bound to be some. Possible problems include damaging lambda/oxygen sensors, spark plugs may not be designed to run at the hotter temperature.

One word of warning. Toluene is an EXTREMELY TOXIC chemical, do not inhale it or spill it on bare skin.

It is available from any decent motor factors as cellulose thinners. It normally will include Xylene which has a slightly higher octane rating again. It is best to mix it with a small part of the diesel fuel/ATF to add some lubricating properties to it.

Try it....what is the worst that can happen [img]images/graemlins/gotmesome.gif[/img]