DMS or Revo for RS4

[FrankC]

Thanks Dave....will go and dig the thread out.
Cheers fc

[S2tuner]

Just a quick precision: what I do does involve removing the ECU from the car, but no soldering/desoldering whatsoever. Some ECUs might require to be opened to be reflashed though, but not all of them and this is an operation that doesn't leave any traces.

The flashing process doesn't leave any traces in the ECU's memory either, which simple serial reflashing does.

HTH,

Mihnea

[FrankC]

Thanks for the info.
Cheers fc

[bjacks]

So DMS don't increase boost Simon, or is that just in 996TT maps? Certainly something to think about if this is the case, I'd be up for a change myself if this was confirmed.

Cheers

Ben

[S2tuner]

There is no way to get decent power increases on an engine without increasing boost. Why don't naturally aspirated engines get big gains with just a chip? Because if you're not increasing the amount of air that goes into the engine, more fuel and ignition advance are not going to help it produce more power. An internal combustion engine needs 2 main things to produce any power at all: air and fuel. If you give it more fuel and keep the air amount the same, it's actually going to lose power past a certain point.

By the way, leaning the mixture out will actually produce more power in some engines, BUT at the expense of reliability. Most of the people (factory engine programmers and tuners) tune engines to produce a certain power level but deliberately restrict this by running the engine slightly richer, just to keep it safe. An easy way of making more power without increasing boost is to lower the fuelling, but watch your exhaust valves and your EGTs at the same time, it's dangerous stuff.

IMHO, no serious tuner makes more power in a turbocharged engine without increasing boost, even if some people don't admit to, because since black boxes for TDIs have appeared on the market, it's been sort of politically incorrect to admit you are increasing boost. The only way more power can be had by keeping boost the same is by doing internal mods to the engine to allow it to breathe more at the same boost levels, and to run bigger turbochargers so their thermal efficiency is higher at the same pressure ratios (ratio between the pressure at the compressor outlet and the pressure at the compressor inlet, quite close to manifold boost but not quite)...


HTH,


Mihnea

[simple1]

proof of the pudding is: Maximum boost pressure on my car before upgrade in fouth gear 0.9 bar. After upgrade: 0.9 bar and rolling road proof of 80 bhp gain, with exhaust and hi-flow cats, further 40 bhp gain still at 0.9 bar boost. I know various tdi tuners claim no increase in boost, my 330d is obviously boosting harder although I have never tried a boost gauge on it, old golf was the same with Tuning Box, proved by drop in mpg and heavier amounts of smoke under full throttle.......ie....thick black cloud behind, if you cant get a way from them, smog them to death

[S2tuner]

@simple1: this is just words. I can also say I am doing an S2 for instance with max boost 1 bar before the upgrade and 1 Bar afterwards, yet claim 50HP gains on them. The reason is easy: if you're just writing down the maximum boost level but not the RPM at which it is obtained, it doesn't mean anything. Your Porsche runs 0.9 Bar maximum boost at low revs but it can't hold 0.9 Bar boost forever, close to the redline it's going to 0.6-ish Bar boost IMHO/IME. If your tuner has just increased boost to 0.9 up to 6000 RPM and 0.7 at 6800 RPM, you have no increase of maximum boost, yet boost where peak horsepower is obtained is higher, thus your engine produces more power. An free-flowing exhaust with race cats is also a way of increasing your engine's volumetric efficiency by making breathe better, so the turbos are actually more efficient and heat the intake air less by being run at the same pressure ratios. This is all words and how you put it, I for one don't make claims that I know I can't back up, like "I don't change boost". Ask MTM if they don't increase boost, their S3s run almost 1.5 Bar maximum boost pressure and so do S3s tuned by almost anyone out there...


As for TDIs, it's easy as well, you need to increase boost to burn the extra diesel that you're injecting into the engine by remapping the fuelling only, otherwise it smokes as you said. I have never done a TDI that smokes yet, yet they all do very decent HP numbers. Black boxes are very bad, because they don't increase boost, the engines smoke more at WOT and reliability is greatly reduced (ask germans who drive WOT in 5th or 6th gears for hours on the autobahn how their engines like running on black boxes if you don't believe me)...

The reliabilty bit on TDIs is an odd one, but if you know a little thermodynamics and internal combustion engines theory, you'll certainly know that running a gasoline engine rich will mean low combustion/exhaust gas temperatures and no reliability problems (but maybe horsepower losses because of running too rich), but diesel engines are exactly the opposite, the richer you run them, up to a certain limit, which cannot be exceeded on a production turbo diesel engine, the higher the combustion and exhaust gas temperatures are going to be, and this is how you melt holes in your pistons with black boxes. This is the only reason a TDI needs more air (to drop combustion temperatures by burning the extra diesel that goes otherwise through the tailpipe and into other people's lungs) and the only reason why smoke on a TDI is just very bad.


HTH,

Mihnea

[simple1]

I dont quote figures i cant prove, and the figures quoted are mine not the tuners... all arrived at after careful back to back tests at same speedrev logs... by me! You are obviuosly good at what you do, but like many in your line of work, spend most of your time rubbishing others work, happy to continue the banter, but in all honesty, your views while valued, are not always constructive....IMHO

[bobjebb]

very interesting stuff - thanks for all the info. Any reasons for us non-experts why REVO offer 430 vs the 420 of others? For novices the greatest bhp increase = the one to chose, simply put. But hearing all the additional info obvioulsly casts doubt and confusion on where to get the job done. Most importantly are we risking damage to our cars and invalidating warranties?

Cheers, I'll make a bloody decision one day.

[S2tuner]

Simple1: I don't rubbish any of my competitors and I haven't said what you said was wrong. I have just said that it's very easy to play with words, including for me, where english isn't my 1st language.

I actually don't care what DMS or Revo or whomever else does, they do what they think is right and I do what I think is right. I have just chimed in this thread to add some details from my insider standpoint, which is based off of tuning so far 250+ VAG/Porsche turbocharged vehicles.

I have never tried to put anyone off of buying whomever's products and there are tuners out there for which I have the highest respect. I do know what they can do and how good they are, and yes, I do have respect for them. I think you got me slightly wrong with the "rubbishing", because it has never been my intention to do so. I am not going into this game, which all of my competitors in the UK are playing, I'll let them have fun with it among themselves and just concentrate on what drives me: tuning cars and enjoying myself making powerful engines.

Thanks,

Mihnea

[simple1]

Will let others make their own minds up.... concensus seems to be that my comments are not off the wall.

[PhilT]

This is an interesting thread. IMHO all tuners have risks, the biggest is that chipping your car with any tuner will have a negative impact on your warranty and when something goes bang passing blame is an unrewarding business. In reality there is not one tuner out there that has had issues with cars having a failure; it's a law of averages... The more cars you tune, the more issues will occur and get blamed on the mods. Software is fine for big bhp/lbft, but I have come to realise that the real joy of driving a car is down to the car's dynamics (Brakes/Suspension/Tyres/etc) and skill.

If you want to be comfortable with your warranty and are bored of the 'cat fight' software tuning industry and spending sunday afternoons in Asda car parks comparing the size of your manhood based on bhp, then spend your money on mechanical upgrades that make the car a better package, and driver training to encourage a more competent driving manner.

Just my two cents....

[FrankC]

very interesting stuff - thanks for all the info. Any reasons for us non-experts why REVO offer 430 vs the 420 of others? For novices the greatest bhp increase = the one to chose, simply put. But hearing all the additional info obvioulsly casts doubt and confusion on where to get the job done. Most importantly are we risking damage to our cars and invalidating warranties?

Cheers, I'll make a bloody decision one day.

REVO 430 bhp might have something to do with the levels of boost they run in their maps???

Its not really the bhp increase thats the selling point its the torque increase Bob

REVO claim 430 bhp and 450 lb/ft over a standard cars 380 bhp and 325 lb/ft.....so a 50 bhp increase and torque shoots up by 125 lb/ft.

But and its a big but.......i have seen 2 dyno runs on 2 different STANDARD RS4s....mine made 403 bhp and Brooners made 410 bhp.....it seems most STANDARD RS4s will produce way more than Audis quoted 380 bhp......engine run in etc.So in reality its not a 50 bhp gain its more like 20-25 bhp given results on mine and Brooners car.
REVO transformed the car.....the urgency and pull of the car under hard acceleration was hugely impressive,and i did not encounter any noises/warning lights etc etc as others have reported.

I like you have concerns over the reliabilty of my car post re-map and will continue to look at all possibiltys before i make a decision.
I must confess my interest in the REVO option is now over and i am leaning towards a custom re-map from Mihnea of MRC.
Cheers
Frank

[RS4_Barry]

DMS are very good IMO I know Rob pretty well and he has remapped loads of cars for me (530d, M3, Porsche, 320d and he is about to do my discovery) top bloke! DMS only use geoffs dual system modules the maps are done in house. They do a lot of premium stuff - porsches, ferraris etc and have a very loyal customer base. I have driven a few of their demo cars - their 600bhp porsche and 335 bhp 535d are both truly excellent.

[Tomson]

Frank,

Your words are wise, I intend to get my car some 100 cell cats and a minhea re-map ASAP.

I will then report back, as i currently have REVO ( I agree with frank I am happy with the REVO and believe it to have casued no damage or issues on the car what so ever. Possibly one engine light for overboosting on a very cold night in December )

Anyhow, because I am going to go for the CATS, IMHO Minhea is the best option over AmD, MTM etc - Not because the above are rubbish. - But because from reading RS2 forum, he will spend time mapping the car to your requiremnts and as mentioned above is what I beleive to be a real enthusiast. Interested in working with you to get what you want from your car. I suggest those who want a re-map catch him soon before he gets to busy and the commercial element is applied. By that I mean going to see Geff for a custom re-map in the old days IMHO AmD are far too commercial these days ( this is not a slant on them at all, just an opinion, everyone has to grow there business and you are certain to loose some of the personality with that growth. Or similar of having the luxury of haveing the head MTM tuner on your dorstep. Lets face it, virtually everyone who has gone for the BIG MTM BHP conversion has ended up either going to germany or having Peter (is that right) coming over to sort the re-map. And then how many have atuclly got 520bhp for their £12K...

Again this is all my own views - (christ you have to be so politically correct these days on forums!!)