Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

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Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by SpeedView » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:48 pm

Good evening ladies and gents,


I'm Marko and I've recently started a company to sell aftermarket Head up Displays. (a gadget that projects speed onto your windscreen)

Here’s a quick video and a couple of photographs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCP7fzrHULw

Image

Image

Image


I haven’t got an S or RS myself (closest I get is a Jaguar XJ8) but am familiar with the armchair that does warp speed without you even realising, dabble on track with an MX5 occasionally, and need to very careful switching between the two!

I was wondering what your thoughts on Head up Displays, the SpeedView, and the readability/accuracy of the factory instruments in the Ses/RSes were.

There’s some more general information on the SpeedView and more FAQs than you can shake a stick at in these two links that follow. Retail is £69.99, but I’ll offer two per model at £40 inc post if you’re willing to snap some photos and add a quick “how to” to the speedview.co forum.

http://www.speedview.co/
http://www.speedview.co/forum/Forum-Fre ... tions-FAQs


If you were wondering who on earth this is - good thinking!

I’ve popped a hello world post up in the Intro section and a certain Mr PhilT has already paid a visit to procure another new toy and check that it works with the GTR's raked windscreen.

(that R35 GTR is something else - looking forward to it fully installed)

http://forum.rs246.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=94449

Image

Apologies for the blurred photo – should really have used a tripod at those shutter speeds.
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by sonny » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:48 am

sorry I just dont see the point in this at all. Its way to small imo, if the numbers was larger and projected onto the glass then I could see the benefits.
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by Mr V10 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:55 am

There is an free iPhone app that works suprisingly well as a head up display. Welcome to the forum Mr. Speedview and I wish you all the best with your new business venture.
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by PhilT » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:03 am

sonny wrote:sorry I just dont see the point in this at all. Its way to small imo, if the numbers was larger and projected onto the glass then I could see the benefits.
I'm surprised Sonny, I was expecting you would be interested in this and be one of the first to take up the offer.

Maybe the pictures don't do it justice, but it is projected onto the windscreen (albeit there is a reflective sheet that is used). I'm thinking the size of the numbers is dictated by the distance from the unit to the wind screen. In the GT-R it's quite close, but still perfectly clear.
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by Jules » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:22 am

I dont really see the point either and as Sonny mentions it is quite small.

Send me one F.O.C and see if you can change my mind lol
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by sonny » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:08 am

I use my road angel gives me clear read out on the road. On the track I listen to the revs that's what I am more interested in.
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by SpeedView » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:34 am

Evening all!


Thanks for the welcome (nice plate on the + 8) ) and the feedback; I've been deliberately hands-off to see what your thoughts were first :)


The SpeedView digits are 15 mm high. I chose this size because its:

- big enough to be easy to read
- small enough to tuck out the way/not to use too much windscreen real estate
- small so that the base unit is easy to fit neatly on the dashboard (large units can't get the display near the base of the windscreen)
- small so that power/heat dissipation requirements are modest

There are bigger displays out there, but in my experience they look daft on the screen and the base units end up very unwieldy. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roRkBrcgNtk

How big would you prefer? :?:


The 'purpose' depends on the person/car to be honest. Common ones:

I need it:
-I can't see (too short/tall, after market steering wheel) the factory speedo
-I can't read (small spacing between the marks, older/long-sighted driver who doesn't like bi/varifocals because you can't see the mirror with those) the factory speedo
-The factory speedo tells porky-pies. GPS is hopeless at lower speeds or in town/on curves/hills. I'd like to know how fast I'm really going.
-I've mucked about with the gearing or tyre sizes on my car and would like a speedo that reads correctly

I'd like it:
-It saves time reading it (BMW reckon on a one second saving)
-It makes me more aware of my speed without extra effort
-I just think its neat and doesn't cost the earth


Glass projection you can't do I'm afraid. Well, you can, but not without a special windscreen (prohibitively expensive) or ghosting. People sell them, but these displays will look terrible in real life, which is why they only supply small photos and low res video images.


iPhones/Android apps - I like these. They're great because they're free and at night they show up well on the screen. In the daytime, not so much! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t10OXkA1 ... re=related

They're also GPS based which has its own set of disadvantages (hopeless at lower speeds, in town/on curves/hills, or where your speed is changing), and if you use your phone as the satnav/audio player in the car like I often do its not so handy flat on the dash.


The size is pretty static regardless of screen Phil. You'll get a little squashing/stretching in height on very raked/vertical screens but otherwise not much change there.


Jules - no freebies I'm afraid. (1) I don't want to put these first displays in the hands of people who don't really want them but mainly (2) I've sunk a potential first house deposit into this business instead, and simply can't afford the (number of different models out there x cost of a head up display). £40 inc post is below cost price - chose the number by working out how much I could afford to lose on each initial unit and rounding to the nearest note. :)

What I *do* offer is no quibble returns. Not impressed; not a problem; you can have your money back - but you do have to fancy it enough to buy it in the first place. :)


Sonny - I hear you on the track front. Its fun to keep an eye on entry/apex/exit speeds on particular corners though, and you can spot small differences with the head up display without ruining your lines. Don't try push 78 to 80 through the chicane at the end of Bedford GT's main straight in an MX5 though - I came a cropper in the wet trying to round that one up, heh! :oops: Which Road Angel do you use on the road?
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by Dave_Hedgehog » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:13 am

I much prefer the large central display, although I dislike the pixel effect greatly, your solid display is better

I would not want something mounted on the dash, something stuck to the glass. drilling the dash ain't never gonna happen tbh

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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by Maximo » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:55 pm

Come on guys, give Marko a chance. He's got an good idea here and wants to improve it, therefore needs constructive feedback.

I like the idea and would consider using something like this if more information were displayed, such as the gear and rpm. No to keep on having to put a Sticker on the windscreen for to work. How do BMW do it on the M5?

One question I have is around the MOT, could this cause a fail having a darkened area nears the drivers line of sight?
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by SpeedView » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:35 pm

Afternoon Dave, Maximo,


Criticism is very much encouraged - I don't expect to sell many of these first products into the top-end market, but am very much interested in what you'd like to see in future products. :wink:

I'll start with the easy answers, get onto some more interesting ones, then what the future may hold:


MOT - no problem. The film is a tint (not opaque) and therefore exempt from the usual positioning restrictions. Don't restrict your view of the road ahead though, as that is a construction and use offence. (yes, you can have an MOT pass vehicle that's still illegal to use on-road) So long as it just hides some of the bonnet/road that you'd be interested in only when parking that's fine.


Drilling the dash - not necessary. I did it on my MX5 as replacement dashboards are 'free to collector' and take all of 30 minutes to swap, but you can just as easily tuck the wire between the screen and back of the dash and it'll come out in the same location behind the dash. (the benefits of asking one or two others to install these units is that they 'know their cars' and all the little tricks for hiding wiring etc easily) Most cars can take the 3 mm thick wire between screen/dash or a-pillar trim/dash.


Films on the screen - necessary I'm afraid. There are quite a few different techniques for getting a display up on the windscreen without a "special film on the glass" but the one thing that they have in common is a "special film" inside the glass! It isn't practical to replace the windscreen in an after market application so we've got to live with either ghosting (double/triple/quadruple images) or apply a film of some description. What type of light and film do we use though?


You can use polarised light and a 'clear' polarising film. In the same way that the sun reflecting off a wet road or the sea is mostly polarised the same way (hence polarised sunglasses), reflections off the glass are also polarised the same way, so if you add a 'clear' polarising film to the glass you can allow direct reflections (reflected ray) but cancel out most secondary reflections (refracted ray) as the way that they are polarised is different. Science here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster's_angle

The downside of this is that you're ditching the light you don't want (you actually ditch most of the light) and you now need a massively brighter initial light source to begin with. (5-10x brighter) As I understand it most OEMs do it this way, with a hulking great light source, running through a diffuser, then projecting through an LCD (which itself blocks most of the light as it works by darkening the areas you don't want to see, rather than lighting the areas you do want to see) to create the image and polarise the light, with a bunch of mirrors to shape the light before hitting a special windscreen with polarising filter in the HUD area.

Here's a little info on the E60 (I will remove this if BMW object) system - note the size of the projection unit here, and that's an OEM packaged solution!

http://www.speedview.co/useful/E60BMW/

One 'advantage' touted by BMW is that they virtual image appears at the end of the bonnet. The idea is that you eye takes less time to adjust from infinity focus to 2.2 metres and back to infinity than it does to adjust from infinity to 50 cm and back to infinity. This is absolutely true, especially as you get older and approach the need for reading glasses. An unfortunate side effect is that the display "draws your eye" toward the end of the bonnet. (it is shiny, bright, and the pattern changes compared to the road, and humans are programmed to respond to this) This they don't mention. The SpeedView has a similar effect - you move from 50 cm to about a metre, which is most of the benefit for those of reading glasses age but is still too close to you to draw your eye's attention too much.


Frickin' laser beams are another approach. You coat the windscreen with (transparent) phosphors (like an old CRT television/monitor) and then hit them with a laser to 'excite' them and make them glow (emit visible light) for a while. This creates a display 'on' the glass but is still in the experimental stage.


SpeedView uses a lower cost approach. I use non-polarised light and one-way mirror-tint film. The light is mostly reflected off the film and towards the driver. (you keep most of the light) The small amount of light that does pass through the film (or any that arrives from outside) is mostly reflected away. The primary advantage of this is that your light source doesn't need to be anywhere near as bright, but it does mean that you need to use a darker film. (approx 10% light transmission from outside)

I use a direct image rather mask. Instead of everything being light then blocking out the bits you don't want, I have everything dark then light just the bits that you want. This again reduces the lighting/power/heat dissipation requirement. I don't use mirrors and lenses to shape the image either - what you see is what you get - as for basic speed information with nice large digits a little distortion really doesn't hurt the same way it does when you're trying to display the whole of ESPN or Sky Sports on the windscreen as the OEMs prefer.

Together this greatly reduces the cost and footprint of the unit to the point that its practical to offer as an after market item.


Size and style of the digits - we do have options here. Quite a lot of thought goes into the style of these. In the SpeedView, they're styled (fairly skinny segments) and sized (15 mm digit height) so that one LED per segment (21 total) gives adequate and even brightness. A 30 mm high display with the same styling would need 4 LEDs per segment, and if made with slightly fatter segments we'd be talking 6 LEDs per segment.

Peak current draw (startup) is 350 mA on the SpeedView with the 21 digit LEDs and 6 additional LEDs at maximum brightness, and that's about 4 watts - actually quite s lot of heat for electronics to dissipate. Typical draw is much less - say 2 watts in bright daylight. Pop up some fat 30 mm digits and you're looking at 24 W peak, typically 12 W in bright daylight, and that's not quite a hot thing to be sat on your dash/would likely need an alloy backplate and heatsink. All doable, but its a level up in cost again.


13-segment displays are also an option - here's a 7 and a 13 for comparison. Again doable, but up a level in cost.

Image

Image


One thing that increasing the size of the display can be used for is reducing the impact of ghosting. The ghosting is only in one direction, and although 'in theory' it goes on infinitely, its really only the second image we have to worry about:

Image

Now, if we design our display with this in mind - fat 'verticals' with thin 'horizontals' - and make it so that the top of the first reflection touches the bottom of the second reflection, we can improve the image quality without the film. See these two images, particularly the 13 segment display:

Image

Image

This will be sensitive to windscreen rake/windscreen angle, but it may be possible to make a display where we deliberately take advantage of the ghosting to create the final image, or at least minimise its impact. What do folks think to this?
Last edited by SpeedView on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by SpeedView » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:08 pm

What does the future hold?

As mentioned above, I'm not aggressively targeting the top end of the market with this first product - installation is a little too involved for most owners and to a large extent it isn't expensive and flash enough to match the car - but expect a handful of folks to be interested.

I'm just starting out, so targeting the cars and a price point that folks are prepared to experiment with was deliberate. (this SpeedView is made to work without CANbus, OBD, or even an electronic speed signal in many cases - on 'project' cars and at a price most people are prepared to take a punt on) The proceeds are (well, as/when there are any!) are being used to bankroll the second product. Here's what I'm imagining, in case it piques your interest and you'd like to help specify/design it:


Head up display. Still LED based, but with digits large enough that the ghosting isn't debilitating if you decide to roll without the film. Keep the "display" part separate from the "brain" part so that it can be as slimline as possible, and is less attractive to theives.

The brain part has CAN input via OBD socket AND VSS input / Tacho input. The CAN/OBD lets you pull all sorts of diagnostic information from the vehicle. Its very versatile, plug and play, but can be slow to respond. Keeping a hardwired VSS and Tacho input lets you pull truly live speed and rpm information for those who really want/need it. (strongly recommended)

Bluetooth input and output. Give your smartphone a connection to your car (the OBD and vss/tach) and a display that you can actually use (the head up display) Open source all the software functionality - allow folks to build whatever apps they like, but aim to provide the de-facto hardware.

You've now got a head up display and code reader in one, which is more of a value proposition. You can use the head-up display to show the 'live' information that you require for driving (speed, and much as it pains me rpms, plus a few warnings), and the smartphone for the information that you'd like to consult on occasion (data logging against the phone's GPS, fault code reading etc).

I'm picturing a cross between the old Defi VSD and the original M5 display:

http://www.z1auto.com/Images/defivsdx2.jpg
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/m ... cs_hud.jpg

Speed as 3 large (digital) digits. (calibrated via bluetooth)

Rpms as a series of vertical bars (vertical bars don't suffer from ghosting) with the orange/red zones but no units displayed. Flash the rpms at your shift points. (all calibrated via bluetooth, with non-linear scales if you like (eg, 500-4000 as the first 5 bars, then 4000-7000 as the next 25 bars). Fixed colours, orange/red, aren't a problem.

Add a couple of generic warning lamps. Programme these (again via bluetooth) the same sort of way the the old Jaguar XJs had an orange light ("next time you stop, check what the text screen shows" - stuff like you're down to 1/5th of a tank of fuel, washer fluid is low etc) and a red light ("stop at the earliest opportunity before this gets expensive or dangerous" - stuff like brake failure, engine overheat etc). You could have them flash up as safety camera warning here. Brake here, turn-in here, apex here, change gear here. Think about fuel here. Mainbeam on. I'd be after input here - and to a large extent would leave this work to the software folks to play with after the hardware is in place.

Gears are a little tricky as you don't get that info from the standard OBD protocols. You can guess by doing a calc on rpm and speed, but it'll go a little mental at launch/one gearchanges and doesn't work so well with autos and torque converter slip. Does anybody actually want gear position on screen though? (I only ever pick the wrong one through ham-fistedness rather than memory problems)


Sounding more interesting?
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by Dave_Hedgehog » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:05 am

One of the criticisms i occasionally hear about DSG is that people don't know what gear they are in and its distracting to look down on to the dash to keep checking. Its not something I personally have a problem with but I do know a couple of DSGs who do.

Staging lights for gear change would be very useful for me.

I actually prefer the all in one unit with the little screen over the Sticker on the screen, but I am odd :)

good luck :blackrs4:
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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by SpeedView » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:47 pm

Cheers Dave,


I may well offer the screen as an 'optional extra' on the next one. Probably won't fit easily with the more modern heavily-raked windscreens, but if its an option folks can at least have an experiment. :-)


So long as its a proper DSG with clutches, not an old-school slushbox with a torque converter, I could do what the bike gear position indicators do and compare engine rpm vs roadspeed to 'guestimate' the gear. There'd be a slight delay/confusion during transitions though, and it couldn't tell you which gear you're in if stationary at the time. The lack of a 'standard' across makes and models for reporting gear position makes it prohibitively expensive to include as a 100% reliable/foolproof feature.


I'm not sure whether its better to do an Apple (remove features unless they're spot-on always) or an Android (let you surf the internet over 2G/EDGE if you have to, but knowing that it'll be sucky) here. Are they setting off in 2nd rather than 1st (I invariably did that jumping between 6 speed and 5 speed bikes!) or just curious as to which gear they're in? Next time you see them would you might asking what exactly they'd fancy? (would a system that told you which gear you were in once rolling, and got confused during the gearchanges, be of any utility, or am I better off leaving out this feature?)


Staging lights are a definitely can do. :thumb:


Thanks,

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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by Mr Footlong » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:47 am

I haven't read all of that being perfectly honest, but I bought something exactly like this years ago and it is still sitting on my desk. It is a Globaltop HG100 HUD GPS - http://www.telematicagroup.co.uk/produc ... d=GTT-0001

The reason is it is in the box is due to the fact that that I think it is a bit bulky (and it really isnt much bigger than yours I think personally), for a RHD car the power adaptor exits the device in the wrong direction to the A Pillar (like yours) which is a no-no for a neat freak like me who wants to just fit it and leave it and finally they they say that you have to unplug it when you leave it out in the sun etc and I really, really can't be bothered with that at all. I want to fit & forget to be perfectly honest. It also has a compass display but that wasn't needed and I would rather have a smaller unit than the compass function.

I would be very interested in this but being a saddo, the left exiting psu cable is a dealbreaker for me :(. Also, I am pretty thick with this stufff but if your one doesn't use GPS at all, then how do you make it dead accurate, factoring in different size wheels etc? I am genuinely interested in this so please don't think this is a troll post.

CheeRS

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Re: Head up Display (SpeedView) and Audi Instruments

Post by SpeedView » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:33 pm

Hi Nick,

No such thing as a troll post :thumbs:


Size

The projection unit is comfortably within 80 x 50 x 20 mm. Looks big on an MX5; disappears on full size cars. There's a template here for the guys who want to flush-install it on the dash:

http://www.speedview.co/forum/attachmen ... umbnail=36

Print the image out at 300 dpi, or 6.5 cm high, 8.67 cm wide, and that outside white line is the footprint of the unit.

For future products: the switches, connector, and the screws holding the casing together add most of the bulk, as you can see in these shows of the inside of the unit:
http://www.speedview.co/useful/insides/IMG_8175.JPG
http://www.speedview.co/useful/insides/IMG_8178.JPG

I could shrink this by making the cable were permanently attached, replacing the switches were replaced with surface-mount ones (on the top of the unit) that weren't as easy to identify in-situ, and snap-locking/bonding the two halves of the case together. What would you think to a non-removable cable/switches that you had to peer over the top of the unit to see?



Neat-freak
I hear you, and may have shot myself in the foot with the initial images I posted, as it looks far less obtrusive with the OE dials/steering wheel fitted:

Last page of the 'comic style' install guide:
http://www.speedview.co/useful/InstallGuide/Page_15.jpg

A couple of customer photos (Toyota MR2; he didn't clean the glass properly and got bubbles behind the film, but the look of the finished install is fairly typical)
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt33 ... 3bdde3.jpg
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt33 ... c68352.jpg

Cable-exit. The ideal is probably behind the projection unit (between the projection unit and the windscreen), or underneath the projection unit (design it to run with a hole in the dash). Many customers live in parts of the country where you can't leave these on the dash overnight though, so I specced it on the left hand side on the basis that it'll never look completely OEM, and this made it easy to fit and remove. In hindsight, perhaps not the best decision, but I'm committed for the time being on this first product. :?


Customisation

If you are the stupendously patient kind of saddo and can solder, it would be pretty straightforward to split the case, permanently affix the power/signal cable internally, then make a notch on the windscreen side to have it exit towards the gap between glass and dash. I haven't seen one done this way yet and would quite like some photos of it, so if you were interested in this I could bastardise/customise a unit this way for you as a one-off. :thumbs:

A downside is that the socket would still be visible on the left hand side. The flipside is that it could be used as a pass-through power connection for a phone dock or sat nav unit. It is also possible to split the case and fit it 'flush' to a reasonably flat piece of dashboard, with filler and a coat of matte black to hide the old switch/cable hole, but you're well into hacking the product about territory at this point I'm afraid.

http://www.speedview.co/forum/Thread-Ca ... -dashboard


Fit and forget

No harm in leaving the SpeedView connected permanently; it is designed for this. Unlike the GPS based units, it won't take 30 seconds to get a fix each time you power cycle it, and it will turn on and off with the ignition automatically. My own unit is attached with Skiaflex (windscreen glue) to discourage Sheffield's magpies.


Accuracy without GPS

The car tells the unit how fast the car is going. The unit displays a percentage of this speed that you can choose. If car says 100 but real speed is only 90, then tell the SpeedView to show 90% of the speed that the car tells it and it'll read the correct speed. Comic-book style guide here:

http://www.speedview.co/setupmph

Almost everything uses P4, 100% as the setup figures because the car speed sensors are accurate. (the speedometer itself is the bit that tells porkies)

Answering the next two questions:

http://www.speedview.co/forum/Thread-Wh ... r-than-GPS
http://www.speedview.co/forum/Thread-Ho ... -tyre-size


Cheers,

--
Marko
Marko @ SpeedView | Daylight Visible Head up Displays
http://www.speedview.co
Mazda MX5 (P5 coilovers, gnarly engine/diff mounts, de-powered steering w/320 mm wheel), Jaguar XJ8 (4 litres, 4 doors, 6 seats, no roof), Land-Rover (moss and tarpaulin)

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