My baby is VERY VERY sick - New turbos required

[Golich]

Aye - those of you who read the post "limp mode" might have noted what I said about my baby:

"I was coming home last week with my RS4 and it went into a similar flat mode. When I got home I checked my sick baby for error codes with VAGCOM. I've got intermittent error codes from the Lambda sensor, exhaust temp probe and engine temp sensor on bank 2. (which ever side that is?) Upon switching the car off, it went fine. So I cleared the error codes and went for another run. Upon checking the codes have reappeared but the car is still doing top whack. So its booked to go into my local dealer."

Well the local dealer has diagnosed a blown oil seal in one of the turbos. Looks like as a minimum engine out and two new turbos. Also oil is apparent in the exhaust system hense the dodgey lambda probe readings which could mean a complete new exhaust system not just the CATS as they have known oil to have gone right through into the rear boxes and lie there.

So initailly they are talking 22.5hrs labour @ £60/hr + VAT = £1586. Just to replace the turbos. Going by VAGPARTS the KKK04's are £1500, so I won't be surprised if Audi want £1800+?

God knows what a complete standard exhaust system costs? £1500?

It's a shed load of money.

I'm praying the Audi warranty is going to come through. Apparently Audi are using a new company who will be sending an assessor.

The strange thing is the car is running fine - no oil leaks or smoke?

But the error codes are there. They said they found oil in the inlet system.

So I'm wondering what has happened the car only has 34K miles on the clock. I always warm it up and cool it down. No probs with the previously chipped S4.

There are a couple of potential things:

A new clutch was fitted last year hence the box was off. I remember Joshie blaming the poor fitting of his gearbox for the failure of his KKK04 conversion. Does anyone know how a badly fitted gearbox can cause this?

Two weeks after buying my RS I noted the exhaust sounded like it was blowing slightly upon cold start-up but it would quieten down after 1-2mins.

I noticed the bottom of the CATs are scrapped, not too badly but enough to indicate the car has been grounded. Could this transmit load to the turbos and thus cause the seals to go? - I'm thinking not. And I'm praying some dickhead assessor doesn't try to put the blame on me. and slope off paying out what is likely to be a £3.5-5K bill !!

Also I'm sure either the engine or rear diff mounting half way along the bottom of the car is well knackered as you have to change gear really really softly in order to prevent a mild thud. The thud is a feature of the design my last S4 used to do it but nowhere near as bad as my RS.

I'm at a bit of loss.

The only potentially good thing is I'd be as well having the timing belt done when they have the front end off.

HHhmm I jsut have to wait n see.

[quovadis]

I had the same experience..no bad smoking or white smoke, but in the end the turbos had to come out.
The turbos had bad oil contamination, They were failing slowly that's for sure.
I noticed this was a progressive thing, and lost power progressively too.

I think audis do have a lot of oil in the intercooler pipes compared to other turbo cars, this is not a sign that the turbos are blown.

Now i have these new zero clearance turbos, they sound like police sirens, they are so loud, when the car is cold.
After a few minutes of driving the siren like wail....diminishes.

[Bushy]

Sorry to hear mate, just had exactly the same problem, no smoke etc but inconsistent running and a few misfires

They will surely replace both Turbos, not just one, I would estimate a £5-6k bill.

My failure was caused bya faulty spark plug electrode going through the engine which has also damaged cylinder heads etc so my bill is even higher

Been off the road 7 weeks now, cant wait to get it back

Good luck

Bushy

[FrankC]

What a blow! Let us know how you get on with the warranty etc.
Specalist cars have always done there best for me with warranty claims on my RS4.

good luck mate.

[Dippy]

Well the local dealer has diagnosed a blown oil seal in one of the turbos. Looks like as a minimum engine out and two new turbos. Also oil is apparent in the exhaust system hense the dodgey lambda probe readings which could mean a complete new exhaust system not just the CATS as they have known oil to have gone right through into the rear boxes and lie there.

Not sure that the whole system would have to be replaced, just the CATs if they have been contaminated. There again it's the CATs that are expensive, the rest is relatively cheap.

So initailly they are talking 22.5hrs labour @ £60/hr + VAT = £1586. Just to replace the turbos. Going by VAGPARTS the KKK04's are £1500, so I won't be surprised if Audi want £1800+?

Indeed, so if it's not under warranty, source the parts yourself. Turbos must be matched to balance the system, but as your good turbo is not that old, it IS possible to get it refurbished to match the new one and save a bit more money.

The strange thing is the car is running fine - no oil leaks or smoke?
But the error codes are there. They said they found oil in the inlet system.
So I'm wondering what has happened the car only has 34K miles on the clock. I always warm it up and cool it down. No probs with the previously chipped S4.

If there's no smoke in the exhaust, then the oil leak is slight, so maybe your CATs are not too badly damaged. Just because your ECU goes into limp mode it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a serious fault. In your case the oil cause the sensors to read a condition whereby the exhaust emissions were outside acceptable parameters. Oil will be in the inlet as much as it gets into the exhaust - both parts of the system are very close together in the turbo.

So we are not talking major turbo failure here, just a minor failure of an oil seal. However it will just get worse so if not fixed it would lead to a more major failure (and you don't want to get parts of a broken turbine in the inlet!).

There are a couple of potential things:

A new clutch was fitted last year hence the box was off. I remember Joshie blaming the poor fitting of his gearbox for the failure of his KKK04 conversion. Does anyone know how a badly fitted gearbox can cause this?

Yes, but Joshie's case was wrongly fitted bolts which resulted in the gearbox moving enough to actually hit the turbo bodies. If this happened, then like Joshie's car, your turbo failure should be much more obvious!

Two weeks after buying my RS I noted the exhaust sounded like it was blowing slightly upon cold start-up but it would quieten down after 1-2mins.

I don't think this is relevant or anything to worry about.

I noticed the bottom of the CATs are scrapped, not too badly but enough to indicate the car has been grounded. Could this transmit load to the turbos and thus cause the seals to go? - I'm thinking not. And I'm praying some dickhead assessor doesn't try to put the blame on me. and slope off paying out what is likely to be a £3.5-5K bill !!

The CATs should not get damaged by a bottom-out because that's exactly what the cat protectors are for. These are pieces of metal like 'feet' protruding lower than the CATs, near the front jacking points. Check the condition of these. Of course they only do their job on a flat road!

Also I'm sure either the engine or rear diff mounting half way along the bottom of the car is well knackered as you have to change gear really really softly in order to prevent a mild thud. The thud is a feature of the design my last S4 used to do it but nowhere near as bad as my RS.

Well there are plenty of RS4 owners who also had S4s (including Bushy), so unless they agree that the RS4 transmission slack is worse than the S4s, then maybe your box has been mis-fitted!

[Golich]

As always Dippy wise words - Cheers

In the interests of sharing this experience the following has progressed apologies for the VERY long post but you may find it interesting and it's all I can think about right now.

Rottweiler,

It's interesting to hear you have been happy with our local dealership Specialist Car or rather Specialist Thieves as I refer to them.

Those bas##ds took 20 years of my predicted life expectancy from their bodyshop, parts, service sale even their finance section have all been terrible. You may think I am exaggerating but I could go on and on and on about them.

So with that in mind I sat down with their new-ish service manager and explained my previous experiences and obvious concerns. Politely pointing out I have very little confidence in their ability to carry out this major level of work, which has the potential to effect my car for the rest of it's serviceable life and when the Audi warranty runs out I'll be left with the uncertainty as how long their work will be good for and lets face it even minor work on Audi's costs a ridiculous amount of money.

All I got was drivel about, "O Audi demand such a high quality from us now. We have quality procedures in place to ensure we maintain as high as standard upon which we are Audited...bla bla.." I've had to get rid of some dead wood...."

I listened to all this drivel, to which I politely replied. "The bottom line is these quality procedures mean nothing. Like every profession some individuals are better than others. A business is only as good as the employees behind it. Nearly every company that wants to compete seriously in the world today has quality procedures. This appears to be new to the garage trade, but ISO 9000 etc has been around for over the 15 years I've been in the oil industry! The bottom line is these so called experienced technicians you are referring to were unable to even recognise my previous S4 was running 45bhp down on standard and nearly 80ftlbs less by simply taking it for countless road tests never mind all the alleged diagnostic work carried out. They had it for over 14 times over 6+months twice they had it for over a week. Each time they said they had fixed it. Each time I picked it up there was either no change or the fault reoccurred within 5miles of driving home! I even had your front desk service personnel blaming Cosworth for tampering with the car. Ultimately I took it from you and it turned out to be a torn throttle body boot and a faulty exhaust temp probe. AMD diagnosed and fixed the car then went onto chip the car in 7 hours i.e. same day turn around.

If you are telling me these same mechanics will be working on the car. You will understand I have zero confidence. Incidentally who has diagnosed the recent turbo failure?"

"A very good technician Graham something.. "

To which I asked, "What is the level of his qualifications and experience, how many times has he removed an S4/RS4 engine replaced turbos..?"

He turns round to his service desk people. "How long has Graham been with us?"

They in turn reply, "O Graham….yes …he's a good lad, he's been with us years, How long do you think? bla bla bla.."

So I'm thinking, well he sounds like he's not some whipper snapper. "Well" I said, "I want to have a chat with Graham to satisfy myself that he's the right man for the job cos you'll appreciate I'm not about to let just anyone loose on my £35,000 car for a job of this complexity whether I've had good or bad experiences with you in the past is somewhat irrelevant. I'd be a fool not to check into the technicians abilities."

"Certainly Mr. Bruce we can arrange for you to chat with him."

Unbeknown to me Graham ... has come though from the workshop and is stood overhearing the conversation. Upon noticing him the service manager introduces us and we go into a private room for a chat.

Between the service manager and his three staff, I got the impression Graham would be in his thirties+. The Graham before me looked very young. So I asked him, "How old are you Graham?"

"23 Mr. Bruce."

"You'll have to excuse me if I think you're quite young to be trusted with what I consider a very complex job on one of Audi's top performance cars which cost me £35,000 only 4months ago. I hope you'll understand the reasons behind my blunt questions regarding your competency given my previous experience with this dealership. How many time have you removed an S4/RS4 engine?"

He replied, he has removed a couple of S4 engines and one RS4 engine and had even rebuilt an RS4 gearbox.

"Well that would certainly give you some pretty decent experience. How do you propose to do my one?"

Well we have two options. The Audi manual states engine removal. I have replaced turbos without removing the engine but it can take as long doing it this way if any of the bolts prove tricky, it's awkward and not always the best way. I'd probably remove the engine.

In short Graham seemed to genuinely care about doing the job right to restore my faith in Specialist Thieves, but more importantly knowledgeable and also an Audi enthusiast. He knew about VAGCOM and this site and others.

Later, still uncomfortable with his age and lack of master tech qualification (he was working in Australia). I called the two closest dealerships (i.e. 100miles) asking to speak to their workshop foremen.

Perth's foreman was surprised that Specialist were so keen to diagnose the turbos while the car was running fine without even a little smoke. His advice was to relax and enjoy the car safe in the knowledge that the Audi warranty is very good. Like me he too held the option that sometimes you can generate more problems as a result of such a major strip down which might not necessarily be required. He was more of the opinion that seeing at the car appeared to running fine I should run the car longer to see what progresses.

I also spoke with an ex-Audi tech of 22years in who has set up on his own in Inverness (Kenny's Autos for those interested).

First off he thought 22hrs was half the time required to do such a mammoth job. His words, it is a nightmare. Everything has to come off, the gearbox, prop shafts, air con, inter coolers, radiators. Don't expect the car back for a week plus. Realistically a two week job as there is repair time.

Cameron's in Perth was his best opion since Highland Audi (Hawco) had recently lost one of their better techs.

Guess who - none other than Graham ….(who will remain nameless) So we discussed Graham and he is regarded as a decent mechanic despite his youth.
So it's a waiting game to see what the Audi warranty company say.

[johneroberts]

Sorry to hear that Golich
Been there got the T shirt and the tour jacket
Take a deep breath and way up about £5k for standard
or 13K for the works.
Cheers
jr

[FrankC]

Having read about the unacceptable service you have recieved in the past from Specialist cars, i can fully appreciate your reluctance to entrust them with this major workscope!
In comparison,they have carried out a water pump re-placement,fixed the air-con and a few other minor repairs all of which have been done with no problems.

Every time i am at the garage they always seem to have other RS models in for work at the same time,so its not as if there "techs" are not getting the chance to work on similar cars to our own.

You want the very best for your car and in this case it might well be an idea to take your pride and joy to someone you have total faith in.
Hope this all turns out okay as you deserve some good news!!!!!

[Golich]

Thanks for the support lads.

Bushy,

Why has your car been off the road so long?

[Bushy]

DOnt ask

Basically wnet in for cam belt service at 63k, early I know but always keen to keep the car well service and look after it, that is when they found oil in the inlet system caused by turbo failure, which in turn was caused by a faulty spark plug, lost the electrode a few months ago. they also took the heads off to check the bores, both cylinder heads needed work on them due to damage. THis all took about 3 weeks by the time the heads where machined and the turbos done

Then whilst putting it together the oil cooler coneection to the engine had a hairline fracture so one was ordered, a back order item, which came in last week, now it appears she is misfiring, and they have spent 3 days trying to cure it

Still waiting to find out what the cause is

I am sure they are pulling their hair out over it

Due any day now, cant wait

Cheers

Bushy

[Golich]

O dear - that does not sound good.

Who is doing the work - are you covered by a warranty?

[Joshie]

Sorry to hear about what is, I am sorry to say, an all too common problem.

Turbo failure (oil seal provoked) can be thge result of your engine running lean (too hot) for an extended period - an ill fitting gearbox cause mine to fail as Dippy correctly noted so perhaps this isn't the cause in your case.

The key lesson though is that if the VAG com detects errors when the car is in limp mode do not hesitate to get the car along to a dealer. Do not reset the codes because by doing so you are allowing the ECU to behave like there is nothing wrong. That is why (let's call it) "limp mode protection" is there - to save the engine in the even of a serious fault.

Good luck with the warranty claim.

[RS4_Barry]

If you do have warranty issues and they won't pay out - I have a pair of cats from my 1st RS4 (2000 miles old) you can have em' if you collect them!

[Golich]

Will you chuck in that stage one MTM chip

Cheers for the option Barry - Something to keep in mind.

Patrick

[Golich]

Well my baby went into the garage on Tuesday morn. By Wed morning it was in a thousand bits. The turbo oil seal failure confirmed. See my album for pics of good and bad turbos and my RS4 missing the entire front end!

Also, enough oil has got through the system to question the level of contamination in the CATs. So the tech. recommend they be replaced.

So the Audi warranty assessor has been to see the damage and is reporting to Audi warranty. I was told there should be no problems.

The current list of parts required is as follows:

2 new turbos
2 new down pipes i.e. 4 CATS
4 new lamda probes
1 engine temp probe
1 new intercooler. (apprently one of the bolts was so tight they stripped a thread)

I am having them change the timing belt, pulley etc. (35K miles on the clock.) Discounted price as the front end of the car had to come off for the warranty work

They change the oil and filter as part of the strip down.

It was interesting to see the car in such a level of strip down discovered quite a number of things about the differences in the S4 and RS4s front ends.

I spent a good ½ hour with the Audi Tech Graham and I'm despite his youth I am thus far comfortable with his work and ability so far.

On removing the engine/gearbox together he noticed that the last Audi tech who fitted the new clutch had left a couple of bolts out and routed breathers and cables in the wrong place. Not one of the tidiest jobs he had seen.

So fingers crossed – I may get my car back mid next week.

If any of you want me to take any specific photos while it's in this condition just shout.