RS4 vs. M3

[VST]

according to the old Evo article on the RS4(it was in the Nurburgring issue) the quickest Audi test driver round the 'ring in a bog standard RS4 was 8min10.Add "R" rated tyes,surely worth at least another 5sec on a track that long,give it proper brakes and suspension and 460 bhp? with a decent wheelman?

I'd bet money that a car of that spec would crack 8min.

Cheers

Tom

[DaveP]

Aye, and I'd think the tyres alone are worth more than 5 seconds...tighter lines, better corner speeds, more traction etc....

[Nikolaos]

I bet, I think, I´m sure... That´s all about nothing.

The CSL did 7:50 min !!! and that´s a fact!

Who will get me a certain test of a well modified RS4 in Norschleife?

Oh and DaveP, about the HUGE DIFFERENCE the cup tyres make. Do you have a set of Corsas for your car? Try to go to the track and do a few laps with your standard tyres and then a few laps with the Corsas. Yes, you will be faster but how faster? 1 second? that´s all.
For example the MkII GT3 clubsport did with standard tyres in Hockenheim 1:13,5 and the GT3 RS which has:
Corsa tyres, 50kgs less, different suspension and setup, more power etc, did 1:11,8 which means 1,7 seconds faster
So DaveP please don´t say that the Cup tyres make a huge difference and that the results of the CSL are because of the tyres.

The CSL is a hellova car for the track. And the RS4 definately cannot be compared with it. It´s a fat (280kgs more) highway car.

I just hope that Quattro GmbH will open their eyes and get an example of the CSL for the new RS4.

[FEED_ME]

I have tried a couple of different tyres on my car when I'm on a race track. I can say that the difference is not big -it is huge! On a track that long as the Nordschleife (ca 21 km!) the difference between normal street tyres and "R tyres" should be well more than 5 sec.

Not thinking that a different set of tyres, better chassie and a tuned-up engine would improve a lap time around the Nordschleife with more than 10 sec would be foolish!

We can end the discussion next year, when I will break the 8 minute wall myself, using my tuned-up RS4 around my favourite race track! Then I'll show the to every CSL around!

[Jani]

The best modified RS4 from my point of view cannot get lower than 8 min in Norschliefe and 1,15 - 1,16 in Hockenheim.

Sport Auto tested RS4's, mtm's 460hp version with Rosso Corsas did Hockenheim in 1.14.6 -2 seconds quicker than stock RS4 with Corsas.

They also tested RS4 with Corsas (and quattro pack) on Nordschleife, think it was about 10 seconds quicker than stock, under 8.20. But nowhere near 8.00, let alone 7.50 -but it was stock engine...and little less crap GmbH brakes.

[VST]

we ran two S3s here(both MTM tweaked,same suspension and brakes,drivers of similar experience and ability)on the track,with me on road tyre and my mate on trackday R rated rubber,after three corners I couldnt see him(thats on a circuit with a 2min + lap) so just to prove that it was the tyres and not the driver,we swopped cars,I took his car out,he took mine and I left him for dead.

Whatever about the difference these tyres make on a 911,on a lardy hot hatch or heavy Avant,they make a HUGE difference.

@Nikolas

I will have my RS4 at the Ring at Easter,I doubt very much if I could extract that lap time from the car,but two of my friends who will be with me might well be capable enough(both racing drivers).
Tell you what,you pay for the car if they wreck it trying and I'll get you your lap time!

The CSL is a cracking track car and I wouldnt attribute all of its performance to just its tyres,but I think its a little naive to think that by equipping a car with world class brakes,trackday tyres,proper suspension and 80bhp more,that a 2% improvement in lap time isnt possible?
The CSL may well be quicker but I still think a modded RS4 can crack 8 minutes.

[DaveP]

I'm not trying to compare the CSL with an RS4...they are different cars designed for different things. I'm not trying to play down the CSL at all...it's an awesome car.

But, stating that 'the most modified' RS4 couldn't keep up with a CSL is just crazy. Are you telling me that if we gave a stock RS4 to a race team, they wouldn't have the knowledge and experience to be able to modify it to make it lap 20 seconds faster ?

'the most modified' is a VERY broad statement.

But anyway...like I said...it doesn't really matter.

[Nikolaos]

Thanks Jani, that is an interesting info. So a well modified RS4 with 460PS, good brakes, suspension and Corsa makes 1,14.6 in Hockenheim.

This is not bad at all I would say. But still more than a second slower than the CSL.

DaveP, of course if you give the RS4 to a racing team then it will do it much faster than the CSL but then we are talking about a racing car and not a street legal car.
Just to understand how important the weight is, at the RS Challange 2004 there were two racing cars there. One was the black RS4, I think about 1350kgs and almost 500PS and the second was the new A3 with 1.8T 350PS and I think 1200kgs. And guess what, the A3 was MUCH FASTER! About 2-3 seconds per lap.

I´ve been modifying my car for 4 years now to make it faster and faster. I have achieved to save about 90kgs from the front end and the final weight of my car is 1540kgs empty. Which is almost 120kgs lighter than the standard RS4.

But because I have realised how important the weight is, my beloved RS4 sedan has to go and the GT3 RS with carbon CUP doors and a weight of 1260kgs will replace it.

[AFAP18]

At Porsche events, /we usually see -3 seconds off lat times using Cup tires, with the same driver on a 2 minutes circuit.
A good suspension would shave more 2-3 seconds. Just do the math. If a normal driver can "shave" around 5 seconds only with a good suspension and Cup tires, using the same proportion, the RS 4 would be able to run 1,12 s at Hockenheim and around 7,44 s, without the tunning and lightweight modding.


Please, let´s not compare Corsas Tires with the Michelling Pilot Sport Cup. They are different

For the money, I would not but an CSL, sure the car is great, but it is obvius that with the proper tunning the RS 4 could do near, if not better than the CSL.
Looking at this data bellow, you will see that the RS 4 has the mottor to be there, but the car is not properly tunned for it. This mods would help a lot:

MTM Stage 2 setup 460 Hps
M cup tires 265/30/18
Very light weight wheels BBS CH 18
PSS 9 Kit
Movit brakes




Here are a few info about the car. First are M3 CSL and last is RS 4, from track chalenge.







Engine
Displacement 3246 cccm 2671 cccm
Cylinders 6 6
Valves 24 30
Supercharger - 2
Bore x Stroke 87 x 91 mm 81 x 86,4 mm
Compression Ratio 11,5:1 9:1
Power 360 PS (265 KW) @ 7900/min 380 PS (280 KW) @ 6100/min
Torque 370 Nm @ 4900/min 440 Nm @ 2500/min
Bhp / Liter 110,9 PS / L 142,6 PS / L

Transmission


Chassis / Body
Length 4492 mm 4525 mm
Width 1780 mm 1799 mm
Height 1365 mm 1386 mm
Wheel Base 2729 mm 2607 mm
Tank Volume 63 L 62 L
Weight 1421 Kg 1675 Kg
Weight Distribution Kg 725 Kg / 696 Kg 999 Kg / 676 Kg
Weight Distribution % 51%/49% 60%/40%
Weight / Bhp 3,9 Kg / PS 4,4 Kg / PS

Wheels/ Tires
Wheels (Front/Rear) 8,5" / 9,5" 8,5" / 8,5"
Tires Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Pirelli
P Zero Red
Dimension Front 235/35/19 255/35/18
Dimension Rear 265/35/19 255/35/18

Nuerburgring
Round time 7.50 min 8.25 min
Schwedenkreuz 245 Km/h 227 Km/h
Aremberg 101 Km/h (1,2g) 90 Km/h (0,7g)
Fuchsroehre 232 Km/h 203 Km/h
Metzgesfeld 162 Km/h 175 Km/h
Bergwerk 106 Km/h (1,4g) 101 Km/h (0,9g)
Kesselchen 222 Km/h 207 Km/h
Klostertal 1 167 Km/h (1,2g) 160 Km/h (0,85g)
Klostertal 2 90 Km/h (1,2g) 83 Km/h (0,9g)
Pflanzgarten 190 Km/h (0g) 176 Km/h (1g)
Galgenkopf 138 Km/h (1g) 136 Km/h (1,15g)
Doettinger Hoehe 255 Km/h 251 Km/h

Hockenheim
Round time 1.13,5 min 1.18,2 min
Nordkurve 131 Km/h (1,2g) 110 Km/h (0,9g)
Ausg. Querspange 85 Km/h (1,15g) 76 Km/h (0,8g)
Sachskurve 86 Km/h (1,3g) 78 Km/h (0,75g)
Opelkurve 109 Km/h (1,15g) 95 Km/h (0,8g)
Goal Straight Line 184 Km/h 186 Km/h
Max. Delay* 12,2 ms/2 11,1 ms/2
*Ameisenkurve

Acceleration
0 - 40 Km/h 1,4 s 1,2 s
0 - 60 Km/h 2,2 s 2,2 s
0 - 80 Km/h 3,6 s 3,5 s
0 - 100 Km/h 4,8 s 4,7 s
0 - 120 Km/h 6,8 s 6,6 s
0 - 140 Km/h 8,6 s 8,5 s
0 - 160 Km/h 10,8 s 11 s
0 - 180 Km/h 14,2 s 13,9 s
0 - 200 Km/h 16,7 s 17 s
Top Speed 280 Km/h 250 Km/h * el. begrenzt


And of course, what is the fun of a car that is already tunned
right?

Best Wishes
WOT

[FEED_ME]

...the RS 4 would be able to run 1,12 s at Hockenheim and around 7,83 s, without the tunning and lightweight modding...

Hmmm. 7 minutes and 83 seconds... Isn't that the same as 8 minutes and 23 seconds?!?

[Andiroo]

Mmmmm, a modded RS4.... I'm sure Tim would agree from his run in Noggy Babe @ Oulton Park last December that a standard CSL is no match to a true modded RS4.

BUT......... I have to say that 'like for like' the CSL is better and faster on a road with bends, and more enjoyable to drive (aka my passenger ride with Tim @ Croft Circuit). The RS4 'WITHOUT' £30,000 (don't kid yourself that it can be done cheaper) of mods doesn't come close, and with this money spent your looking at a £65,000 car second hand (unlike Muggins McFeckin Muppet here who did it from new - add £20,000). So where is the comparison?????

OK, so in the CSL you;

a) can't nosh your missus in the back seat without replacing the heal-dented carbon roof.
b) can't give your beloved Husky the feeling of pulling G's against the rear window.

But hey, in my RS4, have you ever tried to get;

c) Creamy white fanny juice off Alcantara?
d) Dog slavver off a rear window?

The point is that they are both different vehicles, designed for different purposes and therefore there is no point comparing......... full stop.

Although a good tip for getting rid of point c) is to get my Husky round - he is a truly dirty bastard a will clean up all sorts of <beep> - apart from his slavver d).

C'mon guys, compare in the real world, like standard RS4 vs M5, CSL vs S4 v8, Nissan Micra vs TVR etc etc.

Andiroo

[AFAP18]

Feed ME

What do you mean?

Andiroo

You are right, there aren´t many cars to compare with the RS 4. It is still the fastest avant in the world.

Best Wishes
WOT

[DaveP]

He means there's only 60 seconds in a minute, so what time is 7.83 ??

[johneroberts]

a) can't nosh your missus in the back seat without replacing the heal-dented carbon roof.
b) can't give your beloved Husky the feeling of pulling G's against the rear window.

But hey, in my RS4, have you ever tried to get;

c) Creamy white fanny juice off Alcantara?
d) Dog slavver off a rear window?

andy you crack me up man....
jr

[sitas3]

But hey, in my RS4, have you ever tried to get;

c) Creamy white fanny juice off Alcantara?
d) Dog slavver off a rear window?

urggh! you sure it was 'Dog slavver' or something else??