Why buy an old RS4? Why not a new S4?

[johneroberts]

Cuz S4 B6 chassis sux [img]images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
and RS4 B5 rulez, no competition as for a DRIVING experience more contact with the car over the S4
Cheers
jr

[JJRS4]

Cuz S4 B6 chassis sux [img]images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Oh dear does that mean the RS4 B6 is going to suck too?

[johneroberts]

We know its gonna be different in many ways, just like the S4 was to the RS4, you wont be disapointed
[img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]Cheers
jr

[viffer]

My main point/worry here is that a 3 year old, 40,000 - 50,000 mile, tuned RS4 is a lot more likely to go pop.

You're not comparing like with like though on price. For the price of a new S4 with options to bring it to RS4 spec (full leather, bose etc) you can have a very low mileage RS4. My RS (bought a few weeks ago) has 8500 miles and is as new. It's a Sept 01 car so still quite a lot of warranty left and can extend. JohnH's (for sale on this forum last time I looked) has only done 5000 miles.

I take your point about some used RS4s being ropey though. Drive a good one then decide...

I'm another one who tried both and went for the RS4, so I'm biased [img]images/graemlins/rs4-button.jpg[/img] [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Cheers, Richard

[BlackShadow]

Yes, had a look at John H's, but I wanted something standard, and priced in the low 30s. I'm sure the mods are well worth it, but I'm concerned about the pop factor (although probably less applicable on a 5k car), they also put another 1k on the insurance.

Looks good value though if that is what you're after.

[kante3]

My two penneth on this argument.

I have owned my RS4 since new and its now nudging on 93,000 km, its absolutely bog standard and has had its regular service checks. It probably gets harder use than most as most of my milage is high speed autobahn driving so long periods of 100 + mph. During that time nothing has gone pop (except the armrest!) so I think relaibility isn't a question.

I test drove an s4 a few weeks ago and think the comparison is quite stark, in performance terms they're pretty close, but the charater of the cars is completely different. The RS is in my view a bit of an animal in comparison, where the S4 handles very confidently, at speed on uneven surfaces, the RS requires both hands on the wheel and will generally skip and hop all over the place - believe me on winter tyres its a bit scary.

What would put me off the S4 is only the fact that the V8 uses a lot of motion lotion - again more of a problem with lots of high speed driving.

With no RS4 replacement on the immediate horizon I'm probably leaning more towards a M3 when my car comes up for replacement in six months.

I certainly wouldn't deter you from an RS but know what you're gettting into and be prepared for a fight! [img]images/graemlins/jump.gif[/img]

[BlackShadow]

Thanks Martin, that seems like the first fully objective point of view on this thread. I would be using the car as an everyday workhorse rather than some "garaged, dry weekends only" sort of car. So your comments are helpful.

What do the other RS4 enthusiasts think about the skippy factor viz everyday usability?

[JJRS4]

skippy? Are you having a dig at our friends down under? [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[BlackShadow]

Plenty of opportunity to do that after last Saturday's rugby match. The Australian trophy cabinet is for sale on EBay apparently.

No, everday usability of the RS4? Is it a bit of the bad tempered beasty that skips on small bumps? Is the Spaniel in the back permanetly looking nervous?

[Golich]

Blackshadow,

For what it’s worth, I had exactly the same dilemma you are going through now. With a £12K 55K mileage 1998 S4 tuned to RS4 (320bhp, 380ftlbs) performance I figured value for money would be a converted S4 to full RS4 spec, by that I mean, body, wheels, seats and 450bhp. I figured this would have come to around 12K. But it would never be an RS4 and it's debatable what it would be worth.

My other options were a new S4 or an M3. For me my answer came easy after driving all three. It was the RS4.

The most even thing of all was that my chipped S4 was by far the easier car to achieve instant kick in the back. It felt considerable torquier than the both the new S4 and the M3 and there was very little difference over the RS4, i.e you have the really rev the RS to get the most out of it. I never went over 5500 with my chipped S4.

For me the pros and cons worked out like this:

RS4
Pros:
Outstanding looks
Huge tuning potential - The basic engine is good for 600bhp. The modified US S4's 450bhp running RS4 heads and turbos have never gone pop. (Ref Audi driver) If you can accept that turbos can go, you may need to replace a clutch - but not that common. I don't drive my cars that hard that often and they are always warmed up and cooled down.
The RS4 is a real drivers car - but still maintains it's day to day practicality which is 100% of my driving.
There are plenty around to get the spec I wanted for technically a lower price than a fully loaded S4 or M3.
Excellent residual values - Should be even better than the RS2 and they are still getting decent money for what is quite an old car and they didn't have the unique wide body type appeal which IMO is the major contribution to maintaining the high residuals as an S4 could never look like an RS4 without serious money.
Established experience with a greater and greater number of tuners
I have intimate experience of the B5 S4 and know what to expect.
4x4 ultimate practical super car for reasonable money
Rare

Cons:
3 years old relying on a reduced Audi warranty
Having to put up with whatever damage/wear n tear the previous owners had subjected the car to.
Not as good looking as an M3
Not as much torque as a chipped B5 S4.
Audi reliability did not meet up to my expectations with annoying dealerships and customer services and outrageously over priced parts.

New S4
Pros:
New car with all the new car delights, warranty, my spec, etc.
Great improvement over the old S4 in all aspects. seats, handling, great engine note, interior, brakes, gearbox. I liked it a lot.

Cons:
Simply didn't have the kick my old S4 produces
No significant tuning options
It does look very much like all the other A4s - However I still very much like the look of the new S4.
Audi reliability did not meet up to my expectations with annoying dealerships and customer services and outrageously over priced parts.

M3 Convertible (the only one I tested)
Pros:
Great looking car
BMW score better on customer service and reliability in independent tests
A change on the Audi scene with my rubbish dealership specialist cars AKA Specialist thieves, Although BMW is still under the umbrella of John Clark. So same crap bodyshop!
Great adjustable seats

Cons:
It had to be the squeakiest car I've ever driven.
It was simply nowhere near the torque of my S4 or RS4
Not as practical as an estate - I mountain bike twice a week. – I could have fitted a bike rack but there simply isn’t the same space
Limited experience of rear wheel drive - No 4x4 which is fantastic for getting off the mark with the added bonus of greater confidence in not getting stuck in snow/mud
More expensive than RS4 or new S4

My assessment of the BMW is not a fair one as the engine had just been replaced and I couldn't rev it over 5K which I know is well off it's power band – however it really does need to driven hard to get the kick in the back! Also it was cab.

Basically the M3 didn’t get a look in. Although I’d love one for a second car! I chose the RS4 over the S4 for the look of it and the tunability. I was honest with myself that no matter how much power you have, you always get used to it. I know this from bikes. It’s always cheaper to add more power and shell out for repairs than to take the hit of a depreciating 38K car!

Sorry if I’ve rambled on a bit. I hope this helps, but whatever you do, let’s all be honest, all three are great cars only different with their own unique appealing features.

PS on the handling question. Yeah the RS is surprisingly quite a handful to keep in a straight line on rough contoured road surfaces. I’m told those bloody P Zeros are to blame. One handed driving is not recommended. So much so I’ve had to warn the girlfriend! [img]images/graemlins/boots.gif[/img]

[JohnW]

Hi,

I too did the new S4/RS4 testing.

I brought an RS4 for all the reasons already mentioned.
It is more twitchy than a new S4, but this is partly because it has slightly less compliant suspension.
The side effect of this is the tendancy to wander on a bumpy road. I would imagine Quattro GMBH suspension would make this worse.

The S4 on the other hand has a smoother ride, but also more body role when you start pushing on.

A new S4 to the same spec of my RS4 (satnav+, leather, etc) would have been a good 6k more expensive, and drank a lot more juice too.

[BlackShadow]

Many Thanks Golich. The most useful comments by far. I take it you bought the Avus RS4 from the Manchester Audi Dealer? I put in a call and would have been through the door after you. The Audi salesman never phoned back to say the car had been sold, but I think this is the way they operate: i.e. if they totally ignore you, the car has gone. They have done the sale, so stuff anybody else who was interested. Yes, I agree Audi sales and service are a weakness.

On the point about bikes and "no matter how much power you have, you always get used to it". Well, I don't know. I used to take great delight in riding my CBR 600 (100 bhp) faster than Yamaha R1s (150 bhp) around Snetterton - a pure horse power track. Power isn't everything (unless we are talking in a straight line); ability, suspension, knowledge of the road/track can be more important.

Thanks,

Black Shadow

[BlackShadow]

I agree with the spec thing, but I do have to wonder whether some of the options are worth it? E.g. I bought a 4.99 Atlas from WH Smith. I can read it quite well and do OK with navigation. This is cheaper than the price of SatNav. Not too sure whether heated seats are also that necessary this side of the Artic Circle.

The juice drinking comment is fair enough. Although what are we actually talking about; the difference between 18 and 20 mpg? Hardly the most eco-friendly cars out there.

[JohnW]

I agree satnav is a silly amount of money new, and as such it doesn't really increase its resale value, just its saleability/desirability. If you have 2 cars with similar miles for similar money, but one has a higher spec, which would you buy ?

For the first owner this is a bit of a price hit they may not wish to take just for this reason.

Having now got used to the satnav I wouldn't be without it. I too can read a map very well, but when you get into the centre of a busy town you don't know too well, that's when it removes the need to pull over to look at the map every five minutes.

I know some people want basic spec cars if they do a lot of track work, but as a second owner I'd always buy the highest spec car I could. It helps to make it more desireable and so also helps to keep its price higher up the range of cars for sale(IMHO).

To me, if I'm paying close on 40k for a car I want the toys to go with it, and would not even contemplate a car at this price level without leather. I rarely use the heated seats, but the missus likes them [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

On the petrol front I'm getting 23mph out of my RS4. Interestingly this is roughly the same figure the cars I test drove were showing (they were in the high 22s).
The S4 I drove was showing 16 when I got in it. I reset it part way through the test drive and it still showed 18, with what I would call a normal drive for me (spirited in places but not continuous).

I accept its not a great difference, but if I use my car every day for work I would be clocking up 600 miles a week, which equates to 2 tank-fulls in the RS4. Using the S4 I'd have to throw in an extra half a tank full. If you only do low miles its not so significant.

This is all only my opinion, and my reasons for choosing the RS4. You did ask [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Cheers, [img]images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]
John.

[BlackShadow]

Thanks JohnW, the juice drinking differential is a bit more than I thought it might be.

Cheers,
BS