Brake Thread - OEM Ceramics vs OEM Steel

[IanH755]

Hi all,

I thought I'd start this so that we can keep all the talk/discussion/arguments/death threats etc about both types of setup in it's own area. I've not driven a car with the OEM Ceramics so most of my knowledge is gained from this forum and a few others and I've also decided not to include Aftermarket Steels (OEM sized or bigger) to avoid confusing the issue.

So anyway, in my opinion -

Audi OEM Ceramics

Pro's -
Better stopping power than OEM Steel on the same car due to bigger pad/disc contact area.
Lack of fade at higher temps (900'c limit) after repeated high speed stops.
Lighter for better unsprung weight which gives better steering feel.
Last longer before needing replacing (80k+ miles).

Con's -
Expensive to replace (£2500 per corner).
Keeping the heat at 900'c for long durations (10-20 laps on a track) causes surface material to degraded rapidly (you can kill a set in 3 laps of the Ring, proven twice).
Delicate to knocks so be careful removing the wheels.
Noisy when cold.

Audi OEM 390mm Steel

Pro's -
Cheaper, much cheaper.
Can take more "abuse" before failing (i.e. knocks etc).
Did I mention "Much Cheaper"
Difficult to damage with excess heat on track (also see con's).

Con's -
Heavy, very heavy which effects steering feel.
Fade after 5-6 high speed stops (700'c limit).
Don't last as long (20k miles).

Conclusion

I think that's a pretty fair list of what I believe to be the biggest Pro's and Con's of both. In my opinion for road use Ceramics are better than the OEM steels if you can afford them but the OEM steels certainly aren't the "death-trap" people would have you believe, unless you're one of these people stopping from 170mph+ multiple time whilst on the road .

For track use (rare for most I know) both would need cool down laps every 5-6 laps of a normal UK circuit, the steels due to heat induced fade and the ceramics to prevent heat damage from the constant exposure to 900'c temps for minutes at a time so I'd go with Steels just because they're less likely than the ceramics to be damaged and cost me £5k to replace.

So what do you guys think?

[Shinobi675]

The oem steels at the ring faded quick. After a couple of laps (not back to back) I started changing my braking so that they'd last the lap. Breaking hard and early, then easing off over a much longer distance. So the oem steels are basically not fit for the track.

But... The ceramics can't have more usable power. The abs kicks in at the same point regardless of disk.

The oem steal setup (no idea if different on the ceramics) is very snatchy with the initial press. So when you want finesse it's actually quite hard. They bite hard and it's very hard to judge. Once bitten you can bury your foot and the feel isn't too bad. Bit the initial bite is too harsh. Could possibly be a master cylinder design issue, not sure. Both an e36 m3 and 996 have a vastly different initial bite which gives you confidence to bury your foot faster and then ease of nicely as you start to consider turn in.

I wouldn't have any hesitation in buying one with ceramics, but I wouldn't retro fit them. I just can't see enough justification for that, that's a huge outlay for what I see as steering improvements only due to the reduced unsprung weight.

[don0301]

I've some experience of ceramic equipped cars and own a stage2 standard steel (with some mods)

Some of the comments I've read on here "Death traps" etc I just think laughable.

Since buying my car I've changed to Super Blue fluid, HEL brake lines, DS2500 brake pads and VW Phaeton brake cooling mod. Overall, a pretty modest cost. Not sure if that breaks your rule of "OEM brakes". I've never found the brakes wanting. Although yes, clearly, you can improve with high cost.

In the future, depending on how long I keep the car, if/when the disks need changing I will consider a further upgrade. But the cost/advantage/hassle of ceramics is not justified IMHO.

[TomRS]

I have driven both ramics and stock steel, granted i aint driven either of those on track but i have fast road driven, the ceramics are fantastic and i wont take that away from anyone, they will last a lifetime if your careful and dont like to use the track.
They are noisy but i guess its a small price to pay? the steels are in my opinion weak in standard pad/fluid form even for just fast road... with upgrades as above it does bring them up to scratch.

So to move onto my AP 410mm setup...

This in my opinion gets the best of both worlds!
It can take the punishment of track abuse as i proved at oulton park, the intial never drops off until your 6-7 laps in and the shear weight of the thing puts pressure on the pads (DS2500's) so they do begin to fade, but i reckon on a longer more open track they'd probably be better... Oulton is a very twisty circuit with two straights to allow cooling the rest is burst accell and braking.
And when i say 6-7 laps i mean SERIOUSLY HARD braking, i was on par braking wise with a race prep civic type R who was setting one of the quickest times on the day.
Overall day-to-day they are like the stock steels, they have great initial bite but not too much that makes you twitchy on the pedal.
There's no noise or squeak, pads cost £150 to replace which is much cheaper than Audi/Brembo pads, the discs are also cheaper than stock Audi.
Replacements come in at around £730 for the pair and these are the largest discs that AP make 410mm.

It might not have the same overall high temperature rating of the ramics but at a fraction of the cost it probably is as close as your going to get.
MTM amongst others make Ceramic kits for the C6 and they are astronomical in price, Audi ceramic coumpound is not ideal for track use.
Now most people will say "why track a C6" but if you like me and Ian actually want to play around on track then this really is a worthwhile upgrade.
The full kit retails at about £2500 which is about the cost of one ceramic disc, even with two replacements in the lifetime of the car your still cheaper than one disc.
So the kit plus another two sets of discs and pads and your still cheaper than replacing two ceramic discs on there own, that doesn't even include the cost of actually buying it in the first place.

I'll get some proper pictures up this weekend as i still haven't had chance my brackets are getting the final adjustments made at BG Developments!

[IanH755]

I might make another section at the top for OEM steel vs AfterMarket Steel as the difference is big enough that it probably needs talking about.

As I've mentioned a few times I went with OEM sized AP Racing Discs, DS2500 Pads, ATE Superblue fluid and removed the disc back plates to help with heat and I've not had any "fade", even on the track after doing 30+ 170mph to 30mph stops about 2 min apart with some track braking between. Even with 900+hp I've not found them to be a weak point on the road yet but I haven't really had a quite enough run to really push them.

I wasn't a fan of the OEM steels when I first bought mine as I got quite bad pad fade after about a dozen fast corners on the road so I decided to swap o the setup above. It was only during the swap that I found out the pads were Textar rather than OEM so I've not driven a car with OEM steels discs and pads which, I'd hope, would be much better!

[Ceveman73]

We are definitely being unfair on the Steels. The reason these fade after a few laps on track is because the pads get very hot and fall outside their usable temperature range. If you use high temp brake fluid, and heavy duty track pads, e.g. Carbotech XP12 you will find that you can brake repeatedly without the normal fade.

People forget what a massive effect pad composition has on braking performance. Road pads have good bite when cold and perform well for normal use, but simply aren’t designed to operate at the very high temps experienced on the track.

Track pads, however, don’t work very well when cold, produce a lot of dust and can be noisy when cold.

Like anything it’s a compromise, but I can guarantee that if you stick a set of decent track specific pads on the car you won’t be disappointed with your steel brakes.

[Stevev-RS6]

Agreed with ceveman, I've just changed my pads to Ferodo ds2500's, AP brake fluid and installed the Phaeton duct mod (as well as changing the wheel bearings) and the difference is great.

The feel of the brakes has really given more confidence in being able to stop, whereas before, there was sometimes a bit of sphincter clenching moments as I was heading for a corner.

Really pleased with it an as has been said, a relatively modest outlay in the grand scheme of things.

[TomRS]

Ian.... You've spent so much on your old brakes set up and now these so why not just go for the Ceramics?. A friend bought some brand new AP discs for his C7 RS6 and they were Fecked ( warped ) within 1k miles. Told you about those cheap IC's but you wouldn't listen lol

Been running these AP 410 discs hard for the last 6 months... track days the lot, no issues here. Its when you sit with your foot on the brake after giving it barry big brake that causes issues.
Also i bet he didnt bed them in according the AP's bed in procedure? this is seriously important or the discs wont last 5mins, it's all about tempering them gently with heat.

As for ramics, for what me and Ian want to do the ceramics are not a viable option, we'd have been through a set of discs already and at 2k a pop i'll pass, that gets me nearly 6 AP discs price for price.

P.S Ian your brackets look so much nicer than mine... its what i get for being the first tester i guess

[classba]

Ian.... You've spent so much on your old brakes set up and now these so why not just go for the Ceramics?. A friend bought some brand new AP discs for his C7 RS6 and they were Fecked ( warped ) within 1k miles. Told you about those cheap IC's but you wouldn't listen lol

Been running these AP 410 discs hard for the last 6 months... track days the lot, no issues here. Its when you sit with your foot on the brake after giving it barry big brake that causes issues.
Also i bet he didnt bed them in according the AP's bed in procedure? this is seriously important or the discs wont last 5mins, it's all about tempering them gently with heat.

As for ramics, for what me and Ian want to do the ceramics are not a viable option, we'd have been through a set of discs already and at 2k a pop i'll pass, that gets me nearly 6 AP discs price for price.

P.S Ian your brackets look so much nicer than mine... its what i get for being the first tester i guess

So you have had ceramics before and gone through a set of discs?. The ceramics discs last on average 80k miles so how many sets of AP's you'll need to change for the same sort of mileage?. You really need to drive a C6 with the ceramics to appreciate how powerful they are.

BTW, my friend with the C7 AP discs followed the AP's recommendations for bedding them in to the teeth and they still fecked within 1k miles. ATEOTD, steel discs will/ can warp PERIOD.

[IanH755]

David - For the trackday stuff the steels are a better option. For road only the OEM ceramics are a better option. It's nothing to do with braking power it's to do with the OEM ceramics being much easier to damage due to excessive heat found on trackdays where the OEM ceramics temps can sit at 900'c+ for 10, 20, 30 minutes which breaks down the resin in the disc causing it to oxidise. A steel disc can better cope with those sort of durations at it's max temp (only 700'c) with far less risk of damage and, worst case, it's only £800 to replace the discs.

Warping - "Modern" steel discs don't warp, they get pad transfer when you get them hot and keep the brakes pressed (like at a red light after a hoon) which makes the pad material on the disc face uneven leading to vibration when braking which people think is "warped discs" but the disc itself doesn't warp, it's just this uneven pad material. The cure is a simple rebedding to redistribute the pad material so it's an even layer. This is also why a reskim can "cure" it as the uneven pad material is removed during the skim.

AP Discs - Mine have done a track day with 49 160-30mph stops, 10k+ miles of commuting and hard driving and not had any issues, plus they're 6Kg lighter than OEM steel so there's some improved steering feel added which is a nice bonus!

[Shinobi675]

I love this argument the limiting factor on braking is the coefficient of friction between tyre and road. More power can't be used as the wheel would be stopped and sliding regardless of disk material...

The feeling however might be better for modulating brakes, I'm not sure on that one... I'd assume that was master cylinder related. But don't know.

[IanH755]

I really don't think there's an "argument" as such, ceramics are "better" overall on road cars, thats a given. The tyre grip limit is a different discussion which I thought we had in the "OEM steel vs OEM Ceramics" thread I started here - viewtopic.php?f=47&t=120128 - or a similar thread but basically it came down to "which disc type would reach the tyres limit first after the 1st application vs the 10th application" and obviously OEM ceramics are fantastic at that.

However, our discussion is instead about the suitability and durability (or lack of) with Audi OEM ceramic discs when kept at track temps, which is the reason some of us who do trackdays have chosen to keep steels, rather than "which is best" which quickly becomes a bit pointless to me.

[Shinobi675]

I know but it still makes me smile

[classba]

So non of you making all these assumptions has NEVER owned the OEM C6 ceramics.... Well that's just fecking great. LMAO.

[rtd]

David did you ever track your car - I mean properly do a session on track with your ceramics?